Re: Inception

It's been a while seen I actually sat down and watched this one so I might be a little off, but if I remember correctly. Saito dies, goes to limbo, and because of the time dilation effects he then spends 80 years there in the time it takes for Cobb to get stabbed by Mal and die, then fall into Limbo. I assume then from that point, they are both in Limbo together, just in separate places, and the beach/ fortress where Cobb washes up was created by Saito during the preceding 80 years.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: Inception

Also, why do they synchronize the kicks? Because then the story has falling action without stalling to kick on each level.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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Re: Inception

Wait a second, here's a question.

If Saito was trapped in limbo with one time dilation ration, and then all the levels above him (and Leo) collapsed so that instead of Level 5 it's Level 1, does the time dilation ratio change? Obviously the movie says it doesn't, but shouldn't it?

Re: Inception

I don't think so, I always got the impression that limbo was something different than just another dream, almost like the mind entering into a coma state completely detaching it from the dream levels around it. That's why people can build anything they want, no matter who's dreaming it (Mahl and Cobb when they both first got there). It's like a separate dimension inside the mind.

That was my impression of it.

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: Inception

They describe limbo as "unconstructed dream space."  In all the other levels, the different dreamers have had the environment constructed by the architect, so limbo is basically a level of dream space that has not been planned in advance, and is made up upon arrival.  This is also why architects are so important; without someone to construct the dream, the dreamers would all just fall into this unconstructed space every time.  As I understand it, limbo isn't a single level, but a term used to describe any lower unconstructed dream space.  For example, while in Cob and Mal's limbo, one could drop into a further state of unconstructed dream space.

Here's where I get confused.  When Fischer dies in the hospital level, and when Cob and Ariadne drop into limbo after him, they all arrive in what remains of what Cob and Mal built.  Saito also dies in the hospital level, but he appears to bypass Cob's level, and go to an unconstructed level of his own.  Since he appears to have aged significantly when Cob finds him, and has constructed a world of his own, it would seem to follow that Saito would have had to arrive in Cob's limbo, and die there, thus sending him to a further level of limbo.  But none of that is shown on-screen.  Saito should have simply dropped into Cob's limbo, but if he had he would not have aged so much by the time Cob finds him.

The only other scenario I can come up with, is that Saito does indeed wind up in Cob's limbo, but it takes Cob a very long time to find him.  The trouble there is that Cob would have aged as well. 

So how does Saito wind up in a dream for long enough to build a world of his own and become an old man, but Cob is able to find him without appearing to age at all himself?

Then there's the fact that Mal stabs Cob, but we never see him die, or in any real pain.  Would that have woken him up, or sent him further into limbo?

As to how Cob and Saito get back having missed the kick, the last shot before they both wake up on the plane is Saito reaching for Cob's gun.  Remember that to get out of limbo in the first place, Cob and Mal put themselves in front of a train.  Going back to the idea that limbo is not a "level" so to speak that one must navigate up from, I would agree that, in the absence of dreamers in the other levels, dying in limbo is enough to bring them out of it.

This is, of course, assuming one accepts that everyone does indeed wake up, and that the end of the film isn't simply a further dream state.  Nolan intended for the ending to be somewhat ambiguous, but I tend to fall into the camp that believes the ending takes place in reality.  Sir Michael Caine would seem to confirm it as well.

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Oh.

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I never got the whole theory that the ending is a dream. The top clearly starts to wobble. If it was a dream, that wouldn't have happened. It would have kept a perfect spin.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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Re: Inception

http://www.zuguide.com/image/Randy-Quaid-Independence-Day.9.jpg

Are you sure?

I coulda sworn there was a precedent in the movie for the dream top to be a bit wobbly on occasion. Maybe not.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Inception

Hm, I don't think so. Because whenever they show it spinning in the safe, it's always perfectly flat. Maybe I'm wrong, I haven't seen the movie in full in a while.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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Re: Inception

Simply because it's referenced so often:

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Ah, Rob Brydon....

(I think his was better, actually)

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That is the best thing that has ever.

Also, I'm pissed at myself for completely forgetting to bring up PAPRIKA as an example of a fascinating direction you could take a story about invading peoples' dreams. Like most anime, it goes batshit off the rails toward the end, but well worth a viewing.

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Kon's films and that show he did have a lot of weird mental stuff going on. The main character in Perfect Blue is an actress in a show about herself being a murderer and then people start getting murdered in reality and it messes her head all up to where she can't keep the acting and the reality straight in her head. Paranoia Agent deals with a number of mental / social stigma but mostly in subplots...  i think...  It's been a while since I saw it and it seems to do the same thing in the last couple episodes that Paprika did in the final act.

I didn't really like Paprika all that much. I should try watching it again, tho. I think I was pretty drunk the first time I saw it. From what I remember, tho, it seems to do the opposite of what inception does. In a dream, anything and everything can happen. That's a really cool way to do it, but there's a danger of pulling stuff out of your ass whenever you need it. I can't remember enough of Paprika to say if that happened at all, tho. It was definitely surreal.

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Am listening now (enjoying), and find it funny that you guys open saying how this movie isn't that hard to understand, yet the rest is you guys explaining things to each other, that you guys don't understand!

Of course, I blame Nolan for that, not you, but it's funny.

Edit: Whoever in the chatroom that said Top Gear is rubbish, is a wanker. tongue (unless you were talking about the US version, then yes)

Last edited by Mr. Pointy (2011-09-09 05:51:26)

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Re: Inception

I just had a thought about this movie. Why is "inception" so difficult? Advertising executives have been doing it to millions of people for decades now. People try and perform "inception" on you every time you watch TV, and a lot of the time they succeed.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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Re: Inception

Well, when it comes to products, if you suddenly feel a craving for a "blahblah bar" at the supermarket, you obviously know that you didn't come up with the idea or concept, since it exists and is already sold as a product. So the conclusion is that you heard of it somewhere else, ie it's not an original idea of yours. You may not remember exactly where you first heard of it, but you can infer that you indeed had to have heard of it before.

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Re: Inception

Just watched this again and realized - this $160M movie doesn't have a villain. There's no bad guy! How refreshing is that?

not long to go now...

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Re: Inception

avatar wrote:

Just watched this again and realized - this $160M movie doesn't have a villain. There's no bad guy! How refreshing is that?

Actually, I think that's one of the biggest problems with the movie. It's great when an antagonist is more elemental, but instead of going that route and having the dream logic itself be the "bad guy," Nolan copped out and inserted an endless supply of faceless goons to shoot at our heroes. And it's not like that enemy can even hurt them, since you can't die in dreams and apparently Limbo isn't as big a deal as they make it out to be.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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Hadn't thought about that, but it is an odd thing structurally isn't it? It kind of ends up working, but you have to wonder if it wouldn't be better if you were actively rooting for Cillian Murphy to get incepted.

Like, Inception's closest cinematic comparison is probably The Sting, but in that you've got Robert Shaw as an iconic villain, with the characters having a deeply personal reason for going after him.

Bah, it's weird to me how well Inception works despite all these problems. Like, the concept doesn't really make sense, the team-members barely have any characterization, there's at least an hour of exposition (some of which barely matters because a bunch of the rules change as soon as they get into the heist), there's no villain. And yet through it's elaborate pacing and music and editing it's consistently fascinating and entertaining in the moment.

The more I rewatch it the less I like it, but if you only watch it once every couple years, it seems awesome and amazing again.

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Inception gets a lot of credit for its originality, and deservedly so. Even if the concept didn't work out exactly, bless 'em for trying something new.

Also, I was thinking about this movie yesterday and something occurred to me. Why wasn't this movie a game-changer? Why aren't we currently awash in Inception rip-offs? It was hugely successful, not just financially but culturally, so why hasn't anyone in Hollywood tried to replicate it? I guess we do have a lot of super-stylish, high-concept sci-fi movies like Oblivion, but I'm really surprised that Inception didn't have a bigger impact.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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Unless he's making a Batman flick, Nolan movies never have a conventional bad guy.   Memento and Insomnia certainly don't, and who's the bad guy in the Prestige?   Both main characters, pretty much.  Maybe one of them is a tiny bit less crazypants than the other, is all.

Another thing I love about Nolan is he has no use for the Campbellian "call to adventure/refusal of the call" standard opening act.  Nolan protagonists know what they want and are already going after it at full throttle when we see them for the first time.

Which goes to show that you really don't have to follow the "rules" of movie storytelling to be successful.  But you better be Chris Nolan.   And that's why you don't see Inception ripoffs.  No one knows how to make one. 

Or at least no one has the clout to get one made.  There was a very insightful article written awhile back (i forget where I saw it) that said Inception is the kind of flick that studios don't want to make.   It's unconventional and complicated, and requires the audience pay attention.   

Sure, it might be a good movie but that's the problem - it'll actually have to be a good movie to work.   Studios would much rather risk their 100 million on an Avengers sequel or whatever, because that doesn't have to be a good movie to make money.

Re: Inception

Inception is essentially a heist movie. Heist movies don't generally have much of a villain. It's the difficulty of the job that is the source of the conflict. I'd say a closer analog than The Sting is Ocean's 11 but closer still is The Brinks Job and maybe even The Taking of Pelham 123.

However, to underscore Trey's point, Nolan often disguises character dramas as genre films, and that's what Inception REALLY is. Cobb is his own worst enemy, as is Leonard in Memento, Borden in The Prestige, and Batman in the first and third Batmen. And as good as Nolan films tend to be, that's often his undoing. Bogart could play Rick Blaine as a troubled man (or his characters in Key Largo, To Have and Have Not, The Maltese Falcon, and plenty of others), but they still keep it together and square off against the real threat.

Nolan keeps pulling a bait-and-switch that I think is wearing rather thin, especially with TDKR: "Hey, I've got a great story to tell you about a troubled guy who has to stop a crazy lunatic. It's got amazing visuals and effects... and the real crazy lunatic is HIMSELF! GOTCHA!" There are probably more scenes of Nolan heroes' friends trying to get him to come to his senses and stop his crazy behavior than there are of Nolan villains doing crazy things.

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

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