You are not logged in. Please login or register.
Fun fact: there should be four guys in the photo. It's a rescue mission.
lol, the fourth guy is right in the middle of the shot, under many layers
of elephant anatomy, LMAO!
As it is, Harry Potter comes dangerously close to violating its magic bean in Azkaban with the introduction of the Time Turner. A LOT of people find that objectionable even given the blank check of the existence of magic, because the magical world should be COMPLETELY different if time travel is a thing.
I just noticed this, and not to start arguing again, well, time travel is totally a magically thing.
It has been in many a fantasy movie and story, going back to something like "A Yankee in King Authors Court". If you are just saying that its magical, but because they had access to TT, than they could
have done this or that in the HP universe that they didn't, then I say that as far as we know, the
time turner device is the only thing that has that power, and it was entrusted to people that could
be trusted and responsible with that power. HP is not a good example for a complaint like this to
me, because it seems like throughout the journey of HP, there was multiple times that adults
could have stepped in and helped, bad guys could have been permanently taken care of
so as not to cause trouble later, and powerful spells get used to save the day then are somehow
forgotten about later on to help in a similar crisis. But these were kids books, so I gave them
a wide pass. BTW I have only watch the movies, only my wife has read the books.
Last edited by mkeithddc (2014-03-15 18:50:12)
I can see you're an open minded guy. Most people prefer time travel to remain firmly rooted in science fiction.
Even A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court is all about modern man's advancement in the sciences and how baffling that would be to people of an earlier time. It's science fiction--despite Twain's lame means of getting his protagonist together with Arthur.
A Christmas Carol. Sci-Fi or no?
A Christmas Carol is more fantasy, I think, because the time travel is explicitly spiritual/supernatural. Nothing scientific about it.
A Christmas Carol. Sci-Fi or no?
Scrooge never interacts with anybody in his travels. His consciousness observes but is not seen, heard or touched by anyone.
There are many examples from religion and myths about people traveling forward in time but travelling back in time in literature is a relatively new or at least rare. First books with time travel going back into the past are popping up probably somewhere around the same time when Dickens wrote A Christmas Carol.
A Christmas Carol is more fantasy, I think, because the time travel is explicitly spiritual/supernatural. Nothing scientific about it.
Yes, but see now we are getting somewhere. I know of several movies, right now, that are pure
fantasy time travel movies which are really good IMO. They still uses the same tropes in the movie
as if they had a "machine" to use, but in all cases it was purely magic. Either a wizard cast a spell
with a book or a pot of "alchemy brew" and sent are protagonists either back or forward:
Evil Dead 3(1993): A wizard and or a evil book sent are hero ash back in time. He was then later
sent forward in time using magic.
Kate & Leopold(2001): A fantastic Rom Com/fantasy that has a duke(Hugh Jackman) follow a man
through a portal that is around the Brooklyn Bridge(you have to jump off the bridge in a certain
spot). He went from 1876 to present day NY. A the man who he followed(Liev Schreiber)
meets the mans Ex girlfriend(Meg Ryan) in his Apt building. Romance and Fish-out-of-water troupes
ensue. Great movie. Now this one isn't exactly explained perfectly, but you could say its a wormhole,
which isn't really magic, you have to watch this movie.
Just Visiting(2001): The other Rom Com TT movie made that year. This one is 1000 percent fantasy.
A French Knight(Jean Reno) is sent back by an inept wizard by magic from the middle ages to present
day. A woman(Christina Applegate) see the man in his outfit and the mistaken ident trope ensues.
He later gets sent back(I think he goes back) by the same wizard who later shows up in the present
day looking for the Knight.
There are more, but my fingers hurt. point is there are good movie that deal with TT in a serious manner,
even if there may by comedy evolved(Like Ground Hog Day), but are magical in nature.
I think the issue with time travel in Harry Potter that you're missing is TT is like a god-like cheat code in a game that removes any semblance of a challenge, rendering the whole affair pointless. If time travel exists in Harry Potter, most of Harry's struggles in life that make him who he is don't happen. It's the same thing with the cure-all blood in Star Trek Into Darkness. That's such a massive reset button, there's now zero consequence to anything that happens. Any and all stakes have now been completely removed.
But that's not how the Time Turner works! You can't change things with the Time Turner, you can only go back and do what you were always going to do. Voldemort is alive and Harry's parents are dead, so any attempt with the Time Turner to go back and change that will fail, because the timeline does not change.
A Christmas Carol is more fantasy, I think, because the time travel is explicitly spiritual/supernatural. Nothing scientific about it.
I'm with you, and I like your choice of words: *more* fantasy. If you want a hard science fiction time-travel story, you have to acknowledge that every indication we have from real, known science is that time travel is impossible. Ergo: all time travel stories have a fantasy element.
I'll go further and assert that the sci-fi/fantasy dichotomy is false. Films like 2001:ASO steer powerfully towards sci-fi-- but there's the whole monolith element, clearly fantastic. Pure, hard science tends to bore people, evidence DeGrasse-Tyson's issues with the 'science' of the goings on in Gravity. I'm trying to think of a sci-fi movie that completely avoids all fantasy tropes. I think we tend to categorize them as "reality." If Apollo 13 hadn't been for reals: rock-hard sci-fi. Space Cowboys? The version of Sunshine we should have gotten?
Last edited by drewjmore (2014-03-16 19:42:33)
There's a really good, heartbreaking Christopher Reeve and Jane Seymour (love her) time travelling movie, Somewhere in Time, that's worth a watch.
But that's not how the Time Turner works! You can't change things with the Time Turner, you can only go back and do what you were always going to do. Voldemort is alive and Harry's parents are dead, so any attempt with the Time Turner to go back and change that will fail, because the timeline does not change.
Not only that, but I think what the poster above yours missed in my reasoning of
the Time Turner is that even if they could go back and save Harry's parents, Harry
and the gang would know better not to, it would cause such a ripple that could
keep people from being born and other worse things. which is exactly why they
don't do it in the movie, and why Dumbledor would only ever consider giving the
time turner to is Heromine.
Now what you are saying about the time turner not working that way, I don't know
about that because the kids do go back and mess with their own lives, if only very little.
Its basically a paradox, which I think is what you mean when you say they can't change
anything. You are right, of course, but are not really saying it right. They can change
things, but its something they were going to do anyway, because they are only messing
with themselves.
Now what you are saying about the time turner not working that way, I don't know
about that because the kids do go back and mess with their own lives, if only very little.
Its basically a paradox, which I think is what you mean when you say they can't change
anything. You are right, of course, but are not really saying it right. They can change
things, but its something they were going to do anyway, because they are only messing
with themselves.
No. But yes. You're trying to overcomplicate it.
The Harry Potter universe, the one that is experienced in real time, is a compression of all possible time travel events into a single, master, timeline. Anything that will ever happen re: time travel has happened and has been flattened and incorporated into the master timeline (The one we experience).
Therefore, it is literally impossible for anyone in the Harry Potter to change the universe through time travel because whatever they did had already happened and was already a part of the "real" timeline that everyone experienced. So therefore the only thing they can do is whatever has already happened.
The only reason it seems (to Harry) like he was able to change the past is because he didn't realize that he was the one doing it in the first place. but everything they did had already happened in the main timeline, they just weren't aware of it.
I'm not saying it's perfect or even a particularly great example of time travel theory, but it's how TT's and time travel in the HP universe are shown to work.
Last edited by BigDamnArtist (2014-03-16 22:19:53)
There's a really good, heartbreaking Christopher Reeve and Jane Seymour (love her) time traveling movie, Somewhere in Time, that's worth a watch.
Yes. another great romance TT movie. I love the theme with that, to use a penny, IIRC.
There is another movie that uses a similar idea, but I cant think of it just now.
That makes me think of 2 more Romance TT movies that use fantasy magic instead
of a machine or a wormhole. I don't get it, because someone on this thread had
said that fantasy TT is so very rare, but there are so many.
The Time Travelers Wife(2009): A wonderful tearjerker romdrama that DIF should really do as an episode.
also my favorite Eric Bana movie besides "Hulk"(yes I liked "Hulk" more than the Norton one).
Bana was born with the ability and could not control it but still manages to land Rachel McAdams.
About Time(2013): Directed by the guy who did Love Actually. Amazing Romcom/sci-fi that
also stars Rachel McAdams lol. This time the Guy can control it by simply going into a closet and
thinking about when he wants to go to.
Bill Nighy plays the dad who can also travel, it runs in the family. You should watch it just
for Bill Nighy explaining to his son about their gift, pretty funny movie thats lighthearted,
but treats the time travel pretty good.
mkeithddc wrote:Now what you are saying about the time turner not working that way, I don't know
about that because the kids do go back and mess with their own lives, if only very little.
Its basically a paradox, which I think is what you mean when you say they can't change
anything. You are right, of course, but are not really saying it right. They can change
things, but its something they were going to do anyway, because they are only messing
with themselves.No. But yes. You're trying to overcomplicate it.
The Harry Potter universe, the one that is experienced in real time, is a compression of all possible time travel events into a single, master, timeline. Anything that will ever happen re: time travel has happened and has been flattened and incorporated into the master timeline (The one we experience).
Therefore, it is literally impossible for anyone in the Harry Potter to change the universe through time travel because whatever they did had already happened and was already a part of the "real" timeline that everyone experienced. So therefore the only thing they can do is whatever has already happened.
The only reason it seems (to Harry) like he was able to change the past is because he didn't realize that he was the one doing it in the first place. but everything they did had already happened in the main timeline, they just weren't aware of it.
I'm not saying it's perfect or even a particularly great example of time travel theory, but it's how TT's and time travel in the HP universe are shown to work.
And you read this where? Because I have seen the movies multiple times, but have not read the books.
I get what you are saying, but there is nothing in the movies that suggest this.
Spoilers for Azkaban on:
A few specific examples from the top of my head: The first time the gang is in Hagrids hut, the rock flies through the window from future Hermione smashes the pot. The wolf call by future Hermione. And then there's that little thing with the Patronus.
At every single instance they assume it was some other, outside force, an actual wolf, Harry's father etc. But in truth it was them, they wait for the wolf call, but it doesn't come, Harry waits for his father but he never appears. Every action they took after using the time turner had already been collapsed and melded into the main timeline, there was nothing they could do that had not already happened.
And thinking about it from a story standpoint, I'd never considered it before, but that's a genius thing on JK's part. To have the almighty godly power of TIME TRAVEL, "We'll just fix everything with that!" but the universe just goes "Fuck you bitches, that's not how this is gonna work.", so it once again falls down onto Harry to solve the problem the hard way. There are no easy answers.
You gotta wonder how many nights they lay awake while camping going "What if we could just do the time travel thing?", but having to remind themselves that won't work, and it's impossible right now anyways. That must've sucked.
Of course then she went the extra step of destroying all the Time Turners just to make doubly sure they couldn't mess with Time Travel... the more I think about it, the gang would fit in really well with the Moya crew 
Last edited by BigDamnArtist (2014-03-16 22:58:02)
Spoilers for Azkaban on:
SPOILEREverything in the books (and movies) says this, they even ramped it up in the movies.A few specific examples from the top of my head: The first time the gang is in Hagrids hut, the rock flies through the window from future Hermione smashes the pot. The wolf call by future Hermione. And then there's that little thing with the Patronus.
At every single instance they assume it was some other, outside force, an actual wolf, Harry's father etc. But in truth it was them, they wait for the wolf call, but it doesn't come, Harry waits for his father but he never appears. Every action they took after using the time turner had already been collapsed and melded into the main timeline, there was nothing they could do that had not already happened.
And thinking about it from a story standpoint, I'd never considered it before, but that's a genius thing on JK's part. To have the almighty godly power of TIME TRAVEL, "We'll just fix everything with that!" but the universe just goes "Fuck you bitches, that's not how this is gonna work.", so it once again falls down onto Harry to solve the problem the hard way. There are no easy answers.
You gotta wonder how many nights they lay awake while camping going "What if we could just do the time travel thing?", but having to remind themselves that won't work, and it's impossible right now anyways. That must've sucked.
Of course then she went the extra step of destroying all the Time Turners just to make doubly sure they couldn't mess with Time Travel... the more I think about it, the gang would fit in really well with the Moya crew
Yes, this is what I thought you were going to say.
What you are talking about is called a Time Paradox. It does not mean, under any circumstances,
that they are not changing time. It may be themselves doing it to themselves, but that is still changing
something.
Please, Please, don't take it from me, if you really want it broken down by someone way smarter than me,
go to this link and read it. After you are done, you can go to the main page of the site and find many
other popular TT movies broken down:
http://www.mjyoung.net/time/potter.html
That link misunderstands the way that time travel works in Potter. It has nothing to do with time paradoxes, the system is designed such that paradoxes will never factor in. Ever. Everything you do in the past has already happened. You can't change it, because whatever changes you try to make will ultimately serve the events of the original timeline. So paradoxes can't happen.
But that's not how the Time Turner works! You can't change things with the Time Turner, you can only go back and do what you were always going to do. Voldemort is alive and Harry's parents are dead, so any attempt with the Time Turner to go back and change that will fail, because the timeline does not change.
I see. I was just going off of what HP fans have been complaining about. I've not actually read/seen the material (except for the first movie and bits and pieces of the rest). Clearly, their nerd rage has clouded their memories or understanding of the Time Turner.
Anyway, Looper. 
Anyway, Looper.
I liked the part with the loop.
johnpavlich wrote:Anyway, Looper.
I liked the part with the loop.
Sorry, I got distracted by the Back to the Future references about time paradoxes 
Anyway, time travel is bound to cause problems because the rules cannot clearly be defined except from story to story. So, if time travel doesn't work in Looper by Looper's rules, then it doesn't work. No other work can really demonstrate how it should have worked.
As for Looper and magic beans, if there are two magic beans they need to be clearly defined and followetheir own rules. If they don't then it is a case of the bean not working and the suspension of disbelief being broken.
It isn't a matter of time travel being done well or other movies doing it well. It is a matter of Looper and whether or not it works.
That link misunderstands the way that time travel works in Potter. It has nothing to do with time paradoxes, the system is designed such that paradoxes will never factor in. Ever. Everything you do in the past has already happened. You can't change it, because whatever changes you try to make will ultimately serve the events of the original timeline. So paradoxes can't happen.
You could decide not to go back in time The system you describe gets rid of quite a lot of free will. I kind of like the Bill and Ted model, where they declare that, in the future, they will go back in time and hide the keys they need right in front of them, and then find those keys there.
You could decide not to go back in time
Missing the point. It's not about free will. It's about the universe not playing by your silly laws of seeing time one second at a time. You could at any point decide to use a time turner, free will, but you using the time turner would have already happened.
The universe essentially has a giant non linear editing system in the sky and can see the entire timeline, even though we can only experience it one frame at a time.
I do understand that idea. DUNE played with it, with the wonderful analogy of someone watching an elephant walk by through a crack in a fence. After weeks of this, the observer finally understands: the trunk causes the tail!
However, with regard to time travel, if the universe already knows you've used the time turner before you've done it, you don't seem to have the option not to use it, therefore no free will. This is why I like the idea you don't see the effects of your future travel until you've decided to make the trip. The cat is always dead until, before opening the box, you decide to later go back in time and poke air holes in the box.
I'm blanking on the term I've heard for it: Temporal Censorship, or something: If you try to kill your grandfather before you are born, the universe will effectively conspire to fail you. Also, mumble quantum indeterminacy mumble.
Another round of Kudos to JKR's handling of the mechanics of it. Harry saves himself by accident (he didn't realize that's why he had to go back in time, they don't even formulate the plan until they've gone back...), so it works. Whereas, a deliberate attempt to use a TT would fail for BDA's reasons.
Powered by PunBB, supported by Informer Technologies, Inc.
Currently installed 9 official extensions. Copyright © 2003–2009 PunBB.
