I think David expresses my feelings on the subject of value.

http://www.27bslash6.com/p2p2.html

That's a narrow definition of stealing to suit your argument. You are taking a product that you haven't paid for and haven't any right to possess. That is theft. It doesn't matter that there are an unlimited number of copies and you aren't depriving anybody of something by your act of theft.

That's an entirely different debate.

First of all, I never said impossible. I just said it would be different, and it unquestionably would be. Second of all, you're arguing with an example that has a relationship to this topic that is so far from 1:1. Not everybody has good tap water at home. I happen to, so I almost never buy bottled water. Sometimes you're somewhere like a ball-park and it's hot and you want some water, but there are no water fountains or... creeks or whatever nearby. So you go to a vendor and buy a bottled water because of the need and the convenience. That is NEVER going to happen with MP3s. If studios are offering both options, you'll never not have access to your free MP3 website and have to go swing by iTunes instead to purchase a song you need right now. Because if you have internet access at all you have access to the WHOLE internet.

Dude, own up to it.  Stealing is when you aquire something that belongs to someone else without paying for it and without their permission.  If I cloned your mother against her will and took her in her ancient, darkish-red asshole with greasy enthusiasm daily, do you think she'd object?  Because, y'know, I just copied her, I can do with that copy whatever I like.  It doesn't matter how PERSONAL that copy is to her, or how I was never meant to have a copy, or how I'm now sharing that copy with my friends and she can't make me stop.... it's a copy so technically she hasn't lost anything, right?

It's a bullshit argument.  Watch this carefully please: I, Kyle, steal content because I can't afford it and want it and it's readily available.  Bam.  That's the top and bottom of it.  No excuses, no grand moral arguments about how technically it's okay, no.  I steal movies sometimes because I'm a bad person and want to.  Just like I drive about ten miles an hour over the speed limit not because of some longwinded explanation about how technically if I drove slower than that I'd be endangering people, but because it's faster and I'm impatient.

It's stealing, and arguments like yours have been around for decades to justify shoplifting, smuggling, and various other "real" crimes.  Just own up to it and stop trying to sooth your soul by arguing against people whose livelihoods are affected by it about how it's okay.

Now that that's out of the way:

Teague, seriously, let it the FUCK GO.  One time.  One god damn time with your sister and ONE blurry snapshot of her left nipple and chin with my phone and a year later you're still dragging this shit out to throw at other people on the internet.  Seriously, how fucking sad are you?  I wasn't even HERE.  You're proving nothing by dragging out all that drama AGAIN.  We settled it.  Your sister and I had one magical egg-nog fueled evening and you NEVER would have known about it if you hadn't found my hat laying there on her moist sheets while we were out getting post-lovin' Jimmy Johns.  She's technically an adult now, she can make her own damn decisions and so can I, and it's not my fault my photobucket got hacked and her nipple wound up on 4chan.

Just let it the fuck go man, it's not cool.  Move on and live your life.  She's fucking adopted anyway.

Well, I'm sorry, but the definition I am using is the one in use by the legal system. Please feel free to make up your own, but it's going to make it difficult for you to communicate with others who are using the normal definitions of words. Taking something so that someone else doesn't have it any more is theft. Making an exact copy is not theft.

Yes. Yes it is.

I realize the analogy is not one to one - I simply offer it up as an example of a company that makes money offering a product that is not scarce. And they do it without accusing people with piped water in their house of theft, and without trying to shut down municipal water systems.
I buy music from iTunes because it is convenient. I could pirate it, but iTunes actually adds value for me. That's the way forward for anyone distributing something that is not scarce any more. You can't recreate scarcity. Nor should you.

Man, John is going to be psyched when he sees that there's four pages of discussion on his movie! 

I kid, of course. This topic is actually pretty interesting. Continue....

Stealing. "To take (the property of another) without right or permission." In this case, substitute property with intellectual property.
Stealing intellectual property is still stealing.
In my opinion.

Oh!  Oh!  We're doing the thing where we're dicks and make assumptions about one another's ability to speak on a subject with authority?  Cool!  I didn't know!  Well you're rude and stupid and probably in kindergarten!  Hah! HAH!  WHAT A WITTY RIPOSTE!  I HAVE SHOWN THE SCOUNDREL!

And copyright infringement is a legal way of describing the theft of intellectual content.  Which you would know if you'd taken those intro to law classes you're talking about. 

No, see, you aren't making anything.  That's the point.  If you saw Raiders, then went home and made a copy of Raiders in your basement, the internet would worship you.  That's not what you're doing.  You're also not making a copy of a DVD onto your hard drive for personal use or you wouldn't be having this conversation.  What you're doing is going onto a server, finding a copy someone else either stole or purchased, copied, and then decided to give away, and then downloading and using it for free.   You don't deserve that.

You also don't get to say "lol, they they didn't lose anything."  Bullshit.  They lost you paying to see the flick.  Oh, you wouldn't have paid to see it?  Bullshit.  Before this technology was readily available you either paid to watch movies or you didn't watch a lot of movies, nothing about that model has changed except now you can easily get away with watching said movies WITHOUT paying, despite it being illegal and immoral, and now you do it.  Because it's easy and you want to.  Own up to it.

Oh I would, but thanks to Teague I can't get anywhere near a 16 foot kangaroo hide basketweave masterpiece without SOMEBODY throwing a goddamn fit because it "reminds him."  Little weepy bitch.  SHE'S ADOPTED.

Greg, I think you're trolling. You're not considering counter-arguments, and keep repeating the same points.

You've had 4 pages of winding people who work in the industry up, well played.

It's now time for distraction kitty.

Daaaw, look at his fuzzy little paws!

*cough*

I'm not certain, but I think for you 'trolling' means 'making an argument I disagree with so much I can't even understand how someone could make it in good faith.'

I end up keeping making a lot of the same arguments because the same arguments keep being made to me again and again. For example, I have made the point that copyright infringement is not theft (at least in the eyes of the legal system, and the dictionary) three times. Because the same fallacy keeps being brought up. I can't really help that. I have tried to respond to, and consider, reasonable arguments where they are made.

I'm sorry that people in 'the industry' are wound up by an issue that deeply affects the industry, but that's not really surprising, nor something that can be endlessly avoided.