Everything Wrong With The Avengers In 3 Minutes Or Less

- This scene does not include a lap dance!

There were a few good points in there (Captain America being a bad shot), but mostly it's just complaining about stuff just because they didn't like it for some reason. "Superhero pissing contest"? Uh, yeah, welcome to the story of a bunch of powerful people having to work together. "Fury lies about location of baseball cards"? Yeah, that was...on purpose. Like, it's not a mistake or plot hole and I don't really see what's "wrong" with that.

I do not think the video contributes anything of substance to the discussion. It makes few valid points but mostly it's just padding. I highlighted the "This scene does not include a lap dance!" because of discussion on the forums about sexism and male chauvinism found in the genre.

The Heli-carrier is hella stupid line made me laugh though.

TBH you only need to watch the trailer and you're set.

Oh my gods, Hug Hugo Weaving Day sounds like the best event ever!!

So, I've been eager to join this conversation since the commentary came out, but as China blocked the DiF website, I was unable to before now. And, at risk of un-derailing the convo back towards sexism a bit, I'd like to share my experience with the movie.

I went in not expecting much. I haven't liked the lead-up movies and suspected that this would be the worst parts of all the previous movies combined. I was right. To me it was a lot of incoherent fighting about things that are not important and then some city ... New York? explodes because of aliens and then more fighting and then it ended. There was nothing enjoyable about this movie (except that Cap America and that guy with the bow were TOTAL dreamboats.)

What bothered me most about The Avengers, though, was how not-a-woman Black Widow was. As far as I could tell, she was a man in a woman's body. There was nothing about the way she acted or was treated that made her feel relatable at all to me (as a woman).

My two guy friends, who I saw the movie with, thought this was ridiculous and we had a big discussion/argument following the movie. They thought I HAD to feel empowered by ScarJo because she kicked butt and managed to look gorgeous doing it.

This infuriated me, though I couldn't articulate why exactly at the time. Now, having given it several months thought, I think I can say why.

She is not treated believably by the other men. For a woman on screen to be a real, believable woman to me she must face the same social struggles I would face if I were trying to do what she did. In the movie, Black Widow is automatically treated as an equal, with the same weight given to her opinions and ideas as the men. This does not happen in real life. Very, very few men listen to women with both their ears and their brains. And the ones that do, don't necessarily cross paths with women who can and are willing to explain what it is like to be a woman. Even if we do explain, men tend to tell us we're wrong for feeling the way we feel. Thus, silence prevails. The men that do naturally understand women tend to, like Dorkman, get pushed aside and ignored, even if they're right. And Dorkman has been right, btw. The posters are a problem, mostly because they're more a symptom of The Big Problem - sexism.

As a side note, is ScarJo actually sexy in this movie? I can't say I noticed one way or the other until the sexism thing came up on the commentary. I mean, I can see how she was trying to be attractive, but was she successful? Mostly, she just looked uncomfortable to me. Black leather, hot sun - yuck!

Interestingly, that Gwenyth Paltrow woman was totally believable. She was completely empowering to me. Her superpowers include: being in a position to influence and manipulate a powerful man, witty banter, and being a good judge of character. THIS IS ENOUGH! Her scenes with Ironman were the only ones in the movie that I enjoyed. Part of her credibility is that everyone, including her, knows her limitations as a woman. She can't run and fight and give orders like a man, but uses what tools she's got and to great effect. Also, that boyfriend of hers seems to respect her in the sense that he listens to her and believes what she says.

Just for fun I went through the list of movies DiF has covered and I've complied a list of women who I find empowering. I've only seen about half the DiF movies, so forgive me if I miss an obvious one. They are categorized here based on how they strike me.

So empowering, I want to punch the sky - Rose from Titanic, Mrs. Incredible, Elizabeth Swan from PotC

Merely Awesome - Princess Leia, Queen Amedala, Sigourney Weaver in Galaxy Quest, that Matrix lady, Knives from Scott Pilgrim, lady from Indiana Jones 3, Erica from The Social Network, Liv Tyler in Lotr, Fanning Child in Super 8, Zoe and Inara from Firefly

Relatable - Hermione, Lorraine from BttF, Press secretary in Independence Day, Jasmine from Aladdin, Mary-Jane in the Spidey 1&2, Ironman's girlfriend, Emily Blunt in Looper, Rachel Daws (more in BB than TDK), Anna Paquin in X-men

Notable mentions - wife from Apollo 13, Buttercup form Princess Bride, Jurassic Park woman and girl, all the women in Hook, wife from UP, Ms. Fox from Independence Day, mom from E.T.

And per the request for what makes dudes sexy, here are the shmexiest men in the DiF movies (in my opinion, that I've seen.)

OMG - Jack from Titanic, Wesley from PB, Han Solo (duh)

Worth mentioning - JGL in anything, the Goldblum in anything, those 2 pirates from PotC, Mal from Firefly, Spiderman

While I can't speak for all women on the subject, a dude in a movie is a lot more likely to come across as sexy (instead of merely handsome) to me if he does the following: really, really listens to a woman when she speaks, believes in the woman while other dudes don't, sympathizes with her social-standing/getting respect struggles, doesn't believe what other men say about the woman/makes up his own mind about her and protects innocent/less powerful people.

I'd be happy to carry on the feminism and women in film/art conversation, if there's interest. Though, is there a thread on the subject already? I gave a quick look and didn't see one.

Also, just by-the-by, I find Victoria's Secret incredibly ... what's the word ... demoralizing? Something like that. That company was started by a man and bras today are often designed by men. They're meant to help women live up to an ideal - not feel comfortable or empowered. The gold standard for respect of women in the lingerie industry is Bravissimo, not VS or Vogue.

1. That was an outstanding post, and I do not want number 2. to overshadow number 1. here. That was an outstanding post.

...

2. Holy shit, we're illegal in China?

Okay, back to one.

I don't think I've ever heard someone articulate that thought before. "She is not treated believably by the other men. For a woman on screen to be a real, believable woman to me she must face the same social struggles I would face if I were trying to do what she did." Could you vamp on that subject a bit more? As someone who's never really had to deal with antiprivilege, I struggle to imagine the complexities of it, but this idea really interests me.

I have to take it to a huge extreme and twist it around just to get my head around it, but when I do, it actually does make sense to me: If movies existed in the time of slavery, slave-folk probably wouldn't relate - even aspirationally - to a movie wherein a black guy was just suddenly treated as equal to a white guy. There's not any semblance of real life in that for them, so it's at best neutrally-uninteresting, and at worst trying to solve a problem by sweeping it under the rug or saying it never existed.

Would you contend that women-in-movies-going-forward should be mirror images of women-in-contemporary-culture-going forward, and that to "skip ahead" in the overall evolution of gender equality is bad? Is a female character existing in a painstakingly grounded context the only way to fairly depict her?

Not true. If that was the case she would know how to run properly.

I'm pretty sure grammar doesn't work in this sentence

Last edited by Lamer (2013-02-05 20:55:01)

Hmm, good question. Here's my initial thoughts. More than anything I want relatable, strong women on screen, but if the woman is strong, but not believable then it's worse than just not having any women at all.

The only hack I can think of is if you take an Earth woman and put her in a wonderland. Then it would be okay to have men automatically respect her, plus you get the bonus of her realizing how powerful she gets to be there and having fun with that. Dorothy in Wizard of Oz and Lucy and Susan in Narnia might be good examples of that. Wizard has the added coolness of the wonderland already having two powerful women in charge. Pretty neat.

As for jumping ahead to a theoretical, fictional time when women are automatically respected, my gut says that's not a good idea. Let me try to figure out why.

1. In a movie like that you'd really have to earn it. There would have to be some SMART jokes in there to explain to the (female) audience that that's what you're doing. Firefly maybe does some of this ... though that's obviously a ... ugh, complex example.

2. I would be more likely to say, "Fuck me." than "Fuck, yeah!" after seeing a movie like that. Those are not words I use lightly, so let me expand. A strong, capable female on screen with no barriers placed in front of her by men/society would make me feel more incapable, not less. Seeing a perfect woman on screen makes me feel like crap. In that really deep soul-scarring way. I would drive home thinking, "I get it, I suck. I can't even find underwear that makes me feel happy to be alive and you're running around saving the world with the respect of your peers before you even start. Thank you for so kindly reminding me how far I have to go." And, realistically, we'll NEVER get there in my lifetime. Maybe my granddaughters in the next century, but not me.

3. My favorite movies are the ones where a smart, funny, strong, moral woman beat the odds/social structure of the day and carves out a place for herself, not as ruler of the world, but as a normal, happy person (if a bit privileged).

Examples:
My Fair Lady
Sense & Sensibility (+ most Jane Austen stories)
Little Women
7 Brides for 7 Brothers
The Sound of Music
Hello, Dolly!
and again, Titanic

There're probably more good examples, but those are the ones that come to mind right away.

Those women are empowering and based on how my lady friends react to those movies, I would say I'm not alone.

Correct! You got it!

Regarding the future: I have NO idea. I don't make movies; I don't even write stories, but if I see something that's off, I'm willing to say so. (Much like you guys on the podcast.) My only advice would be to tread slowly, make incremental steps forward and hopefully we'll all get there someday. Actually, Katniss from Hunger Games is a good example of a step in the right direction. Thinks like a woman, fights like a man, and the fact that she is female is not much of an issue. She is underestimated for other reasons (being poor, young, uneducated) but not because she's female. So, there you go, more Katniss'es please!

To my constant consternation, yes. It could just be that the code for the forum tipped off a robot to block it, but the home page is also blocked ... so I don't know. Even the podcast is occasionally blocked, even when I use BeyondPod or Podkicker to try to retrieve it. The Android app sometimes works, but only sometimes. Website blockage has not generally been such a problem, but with the leadership changeover this fall they've cracked down considerably. But I'm back in the states now, so it's not my personal problem anymore, haha. My only suggestion would be to put DiF on Stitcher (a podcast app), as China hasn't been able to block shows on that ... yet, but perhaps you guys don't have enough communist fans to make it worth while. Although, funny story, my school seemed to have more strict blocks than other places, so I spent a lot of Mondays this past semester (slowly!) downloading DiF on the free wi-fi at bubble tea. My barrista and I got to know each other pretty well as a result.

From her perspective, it's about fucking time.  Keep in mind, when she went through Boot Camp at Fort Jackson back in 1979, her PT standards were the same as the men's.  She had to do the same number of pushups, pullups, situps, and have the same run time as the men.  And it's not like she DIDN'T endure sexism.  She was sort of convinced by the end of Boot Camp that her real name was "Goat Cunt."  It wasn't until later that they changed the PT standards so whereas men had to do 42 pushups in 2 minutes, women only had to do 18, that they had to do 15 less situps, and run the 2 mile a minute slower.  To her, THAT was the real sexism. 

It's also reflective of modern combat.  There are fewer foxholes to dig, and more nightly patrols and urban sweeps to do.  The military is sometimes slow to evolve, but it always finds a way to.  *cue Jurassic Park theme*

Why did they change it? It doesn't make any sense.