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Re: Brave

Phi wrote:

I agree with everything fireproof78 said (other than the being male part).

I think there is an underfilled market for good new fiction for women. See the success of The Fault in Our Stars, both movie and book. The Hunger Games is also pretty good (could be better...especially the ending). I haven't read Divergent so I can't judge it, but the movie was poorly reviewed.

I see Twilight as on the same level as the Michael Bay Transformers. I get that there's a market, but I'm not going to defend either of them from criticism. I refuse to believe that the lousy bits are integral to what makes them popular.


Thank you, Phi smile

I wanted to try and tight this back to the Brave discussion, though it may be a bit of a divergent (no pun intended) but hopefully will bring it back.

Like I said, Twilight is not criticized by me for being female centric or a female fantasy. I criticized it because of the poor quality. Again, it is similar to romance novels, but I do not object to ALL romance novels. I object to the poorly developed ones, or the more Mary Sue type stories.

Brave, in a similar vein, is trying to develop a story from the opposite of a Mary Sue, with the fact that Merida is far more of a person, an interesting character, with goals and motivations, who is in a lacking narrative. That is the criticism of Brave, not whether or not it is a female driven, centric story. It is that we have a strong female character, who's narrative does not flow from anything coherent regarding her goals or desires. Instead, our friends in our heads point out, the beginning of the movie and the end of the movie do not flow in a way that produce a satisfying or empowering ending.

I hope that I made that point clear. I think it was kind of beat to death but now we can move on smile

With regards to males commenting on female-centric stories and their importance, I will agree that as a male my perspective is colored. However, if my being a male excludes me or makes me afraid to comment on a movie, good or bad, then that doesn't really create a dialog, does it?

And, this is not a criticism of anyone here at this forum, but more of an open question regarding criticism of movies like Twilight or Brave. If a movie is bad, character-wise, narrative-wise, etc, then I should be able to speak up and criticize it. Like Cotterpin Dozer said, I might have to provide more evidence to support my position, but that shouldn't preclude a male voice. But, often, there is a fear to speak up in situations like this because of the fear of being accused of being sexist, racist, etc.

Finally, regarding female centric Speculative Fiction: I will admit, I only really know some as I have not read as much SF as I would like. Heinlein actually has an interesting book called Friday, told from first person perspective of a female android. Also, Ursula Le Guin is an interesting author as well.

s

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  • Registered: 2012-09-18
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Re: Brave

Hah, presumably I'm one of the anyones you're going out of your way to not criticize and I sincerely appreciate that. It motivated me to respond to your question with my immediate reaction.

The thing is, once a peaceful dialogue does begin, men tend to be be afraid that they'll lose their voices, whereas women tend to be shocked, overjoyed and encouraged by the fact that they'll get to use theirs. It kind of makes me want to laugh and cry at the same time. I don't think it's anyone's intention (here, anyway) for you to lose your voice or live in fear that you will. But also understand that the women coming to this conversation are risking much more than potentially being labeled sexist/racist/etc. I'd encourage you to remember that women are almost never free from fear in a conversation like this. If everyone being free from fear were a prerequisite for a dialogue, we would probably never have one.

Like I said, it seems clear from this discussion so far that the people here are eager to listen, even where feelings are strong and people passionately disagree. I can't speak to all the discussions you might get to participate in; you might just have to take it on a case by case basis, but yeah, in general, of course you should have a voice. And so should women (and other anti-privileged groups.) If you don't feel like you have been allowed a voice in a particular instance, try to remember that women often don't get a voice either and sometimes you just have to wait for the next opportunity for a dialogue to present itself.

ETA: your comment about Mary-Sue's reminded me of a post, but I don't remember enough to re-find it.  Here's a post on the topic of Mary Sue and Twilight (and other stuff) that you might find interesting, though. Apparently, it was quite successful.

Last edited by Bathilda (2014-06-19 23:31:23)

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  • From: State of Idaho
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Re: Brave

Bathilda wrote:

Hah, presumably I'm one of the anyones you're going out of your way to not criticize and I sincerely appreciate that. It motivated me to respond to your question with my immediate reaction.

The thing is, once a peaceful dialogue does begin, men tend to be be afraid that they'll lose their voices, whereas women tend to be shocked, overjoyed and encouraged by the fact that they'll get to use theirs. It kind of makes me want to laugh and cry at the same time. I don't think it's anyone's intention (here, anyway) for you to lose your voice or live in fear that you will. But also understand that the women coming to this conversation are risking much more than potentially being labeled sexist/racist/etc. I'd encourage you to remember that women are almost never free from fear in a conversation like this. If everyone being free from fear were a prerequisite for a dialogue, we would probably never have one.

Like I said, it seems clear from this discussion so far that the people here are eager to listen, even where feelings are strong and people passionately disagree. I can't speak to all the discussions you might get to participate in; you might just have to take it on a case by case basis, but yeah, in general, of course you should have a voice. And so should women (and other anti-privileged groups.) If you don't feel like you have been allowed a voice in a particular instance, try to remember that women often don't get a voice either and sometimes you just have to wait for the next opportunity for a dialogue to present itself.

ETA: your comment about Mary-Sue's reminded me of a post, but I don't remember enough to re-find it.  Here's a post on the topic of Mary Sue and Twilight (and other stuff) that you might find interesting, though. Apparently, it was quite successful.

This will be brief, but I wanted to thank you for the article. I will also pass it along to my wife, who writes fan fiction and actively tries to avoid Mary Sue in her original characters. Because of that, I have become far more familiar with the term and definition of a "Mary Sue" than I thought I would ever be.

As a brief aside, perhaps not on topic, I can recall writing short stories in school where the characters were perfect, idealized versions of myself, or playing role-playing games where people's characters where idealized, both male and female. So, as much as criticize stories and films for their characters, part of the reason that I do so is to recognize those traits and to actively avoid them. In this case, I think that Twilight has become a scapegoat in the overall discussion.

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  • From: New Zealand
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Re: Brave

Great links, thanks. I wrote a Mary Sue fanfic (a Buffy one) when I was in high school. I printed it out for my friends to read (fanfiction.net didn't exist then). I look back now and cringe, but I think even at the time I knew it was a Mary Sue, though I didn't have the term for it. It was my way of putting myself into the story, but I never heralded it as anything other than a silly thing I did for fun, and a way of practicing writing dialogue.

Twilight is a Mary Sue, as explained in the article that Bathilda linked. Divergent is also a Mary Sue, in my opinion, though a slightly more interesting one (slightly, because it involves a dystopian world and a series of action sequences, which are very contrived and silly, but are action sequences nonetheless).

The Hunger Games, on the other hand, is a story with a female heroine who gains and actually earns the respect of others. (In the first book anyway. Not so much later on when she loses all her agency and frustratingly never stands up and demands it back, instead being inexplicably content to be unconscious during all of the major plot developments.)

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Re: Brave

everythingshiny wrote:

Great links, thanks. I wrote a Mary Sue fanfic (a Buffy one) when I was in high school. I printed it out for my friends to read (fanfiction.net didn't exist then). I look back now and cringe, but I think even at the time I knew it was a Mary Sue, though I didn't have the term for it. It was my way of putting myself into the story, but I never heralded it as anything other than a silly thing I did for fun, and a way of practicing writing dialogue.

Twilight is a Mary Sue, as explained in the article that Bathilda linked. Divergent is also a Mary Sue, in my opinion, though a slightly more interesting one (slightly, because it involves a dystopian world and a series of action sequences, which are very contrived and silly, but are action sequences nonetheless).

The Hunger Games, on the other hand, is a story with a female heroine who gains and actually earns the respect of others. (In the first book anyway. Not so much later on when she loses all her agency and frustratingly never stands up and demands it back, instead being inexplicably content to be unconscious during all of the major plot developments.)

If I lived in the world of "Hunger Games" I might opt to be unconscious to avoid it wink

I wanted to give a quick amendment to my suggestion for more feminist/female centric authors. Ursula K. Le Guin is one that I highly recommend, as she enjoys scifi and fantasy as a vehicle to explore different aspects of society.

I also will recommend Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy, who does some subversion of fantasy tropes as well as having a female protagonist who moves through an interesting twist on the Hero's journey. Yes, I said Hero's Journey. It is a dense fantasy work, with a wide variety of characters, but Vin (the protagonist) has the most interesting arc (to me).

C.J. Cherryh is another author, one I have had the opportunity to meet at conventions, and is a friend of my uncle's. She certainly does a variety of books in the SF genre, so hopefully something out there will strike your interest smile

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  • Registered: 2012-09-18
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Re: Brave

You're welcome! I'm so glad you guys liked those links! \o/

everythingshiny wrote:

Twilight is a Mary Sue, as explained in the article that Bathilda linked. Divergent is also a Mary Sue, in my opinion, though a slightly more interesting one (slightly, because it involves a dystopian world and a series of action sequences, which are very contrived and silly, but are action sequences nonetheless.

While I do really like the article I linked to, I kind of subscribe more to Holly Black's theory that a female protagonists by nature almost can't be a Mary Sue because, as she describes, a Mary Sue in the original sense of the term is a character who usurps the MC and magically solves the big problems while appearing to be beautiful and awesome and loved by everyone in a way that warps the MC's story and probably becomes the love interest of the main guy/gal. If the "Mary Sue" IS the main character than she can't warp her own story and any love interest present will just be there because the story revolves around her anyway.

The only character I can think of in the Hunger Games/Twilight/Divergent type books (recent popular YA Lit. written by a woman) who might be a Mary Sue is Ginny Weasley because, in the later books, she comes across as a little too cool, well-liked, good at sports, super funny and she gets the main guy. After book four, I always felt like JKR liked Ginny and expected me to like her more than I actually did. But as much as I think she was a wasted opportunity she's probably not really even a Mary Sue, because she does work for a lot of people and, logically, her story makes sense with how she develops into being a match for Harry and she's good at quidditch 'cause she practiced for years with her brothers, etc. I still feel like it's reasonable that I'd be disappointed in the way she handled Ginny, but maybe "Mary Sue" is just not a label that's helpful in this instance. I dunno.

Anyway, I'm a bit afraid to ask, but why do you think Tris is a Mary Sue?

---

Downton Abbey, btw, is generally considered to have two Gary Stu's, Lord Grantham and Mr. Bates.

And this is an amazing post about how Batman is also a Mary Sue.

---

fireproof78 wrote:

I wanted to give a quick amendment to my suggestion for more feminist/female centric authors. Ursula K. Le Guin is one that I highly recommend, as she enjoys scifi and fantasy as a vehicle to explore different aspects of society.

This is an interesting recommendation. I agree her books are to be read (though, I haven't yet), but one of the main criticisms against her earlier stories is that there's a major lack of female characters, much less female protagonists. I bring this up not to bash her, but because it makes me wonder, is it easier to be taken seriously as a female author if you write about men? Do you automatically bypass a lot of criticism that way? For example, was that helpful to J.K. Rowling? Should we be harder on women who write about women than women who write about men? I assume not, but it kind of feels like that's what happens anyway.

Also, I'll toss Patricia C. Wrede's Enchanted Forest books onto the list of recommended reading. smile

fireproof78 wrote:

If I lived in the world of "Hunger Games" I might opt to be unconscious to avoid it wink

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Re: Brave

fireproof78 wrote:

I wanted to give a quick amendment to my suggestion for more feminist/female centric authors. Ursula K. Le Guin is one that I highly recommend, as she enjoys scifi and fantasy as a vehicle to explore different aspects of society.

What seems feminist/female centric at first can sometimes become less so the more you read it. As an example, I'm a fan of Ann McCaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern books (most of them, at least). Lots of strong female characters, to the point where a woman once asked why the hell a guy would read them. My answer was Jaxom. I read the first two books just so I could get to The White Dragon, with that iconic cover of him riding Ruth.

A few years ago, though, while listening to the audiobooks again, I realized how... subservient almost all the women were to men. It's subtle, but there. Basically, females are powerful and independent up until the point where they get a man. After that, he takes over. It becomes really obvious in the later books, where Menolly practically vanishes once she's married. Even Lessa, as powerful as she's described, is always wrong to disagree with F'lar, and she falls apart when he's injured. There's also a very strong sense of "good breeding makes good people", for lack of a better description. Everyone from certain places are bad, because, well, it's a bad city.

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  • From: State of Idaho
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Re: Brave

Invid wrote:
fireproof78 wrote:

I wanted to give a quick amendment to my suggestion for more feminist/female centric authors. Ursula K. Le Guin is one that I highly recommend, as she enjoys scifi and fantasy as a vehicle to explore different aspects of society.

What seems feminist/female centric at first can sometimes become less so the more you read it. As an example, I'm a fan of Ann McCaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern books (most of them, at least). Lots of strong female characters, to the point where a woman once asked why the hell a guy would read them. My answer was Jaxom. I read the first two books just so I could get to The White Dragon, with that iconic cover of him riding Ruth.

A few years ago, though, while listening to the audiobooks again, I realized how... subservient almost all the women were to men. It's subtle, but there. Basically, females are powerful and independent up until the point where they get a man. After that, he takes over. It becomes really obvious in the later books, where Menolly practically vanishes once she's married. Even Lessa, as powerful as she's described, is always wrong to disagree with F'lar, and she falls apart when he's injured. There's also a very strong sense of "good breeding makes good people", for lack of a better description. Everyone from certain places are bad, because, well, it's a bad city.

Indeed, it requires a bit of sensitivity, and not of of Le Guin's work can be called pro-feminist. However, there are some that are better than others, like you said, are worth reading.

This is one of the reasons that I like the Mistborn trilogy, and apologize for the apparent harping and promotion of this series. Sanderson likes to subvert tropes, and some of his work is hit and miss. However, Vin, in Mistborn, is a very interesting protagonist, in that she doesn't feel worthy, is built up by the male characters, and finds someone to love. It is not strictly pro-feminist, and I will admit that. However, the characters feel more real, and Vin feels like a woman who is growing and changing in response to the world and demands placed on her. It might be not strictly "pro-female" as she often defers to the male characters, but there is a lot more agency on the part of Vin as the trilogy moves on.

Anyway, shameless plug over wink

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Re: Brave

Bathilda wrote:

While I do really like the article I linked to, I kind of subscribe more to Holly Black's theory that a female protagonists by nature almost can't be a Mary Sue because, as she describes, a Mary Sue in the original sense of the term is a character who usurps the MC and magically solves the big problems while appearing to be beautiful and awesome and loved by everyone in a way that warps the MC's story and probably becomes the love interest of the main guy/gal. If the "Mary Sue" IS the main character than she can't warp her own story and any love interest present will just be there because the story revolves around her anyway.

Anyway, I'm a bit afraid to ask, but why do you think Tris is a Mary Sue?

That's fair, and I'm inclined to agree actually, if a Mary Sue is defined as a character in fanfiction who doesn't exist in the original story, and is written in by a fan as a wishfulfillment character. Under that definition, Tris isn't one because, as you say, she is her own story's protagonist.

If we are defining Mary Sue as a character who is impossibly perfect, that's where my read on Tris comes in. Although I will firstly say that I only read the first Divergent book, and I read it fast, and I don't remember all that much about it. So perhaps that skews my read of it, and I may be wrong in what I've taken away from it. But I could never see for myself what was special about Tris other than the fact that everyone seemed to think she was special. Sure, she's "Divergent" because she can't be sorted into one or another specific faction, but that never read to me like a surprise - I couldn't fit myself into one of those factions either. The whole idea of being entirely this, or entirely that, was so insane to me that I never really bought into the world in the first place. (I think they go more into this in the later books, but the first book should've helped me along with that IMO, and it didn't.) So although in a way Tris' "divergence" made me more inclined to relate to her, I find her profoundly unlikeable so it didn't really help. I never understood what Four saw in her. For me, when I read it and I started thinking about how to "Fix" it, a la FIYH, I wanted her to actually show some kind of manifestation of her divergence in the way she behaved. Because the story says "she's not just fearless, she's also smart, and optimistic, and caring" (or whatever the personality traits are supposed to be, I forget specifics) but we don't really SEE her being those things. Maybe because it's in first person we are supposed to believe her when she says she is/feels that way, but.... I just didn't get it. So I felt like I was being told "Tris is awesome!" when I didn't agree. Which was why she felt to me like a Mary Sue character - one who the author thought was awesome, but never really gave me a reason to agree. Show, don't tell, right? smile

Also, all of the story twists were blindingly predictable, so nothing in the story really worked for me on any level. I was profoundly bored by it. However I know lots of people loved it and more power to them, I guess. At least it steered away from the abusive possessiveness of Twilight.

I wrote my ideas about this down after I finished reading it, but I haven't got them to hand. Perhaps I'll try and find them tonight and see if I can be more coherent. Also I'm at work so I don't have time to edit this, hopefully it makes some kind of sense.

Last edited by everythingshiny (2014-06-23 03:09:05)

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  • Registered: 2012-09-18
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Re: Brave

everythingshiny wrote:

For me, when I read it and I started thinking about how to "Fix" it, a la FIYH, I wanted her to actually show some kind of manifestation of her divergence in the way she behaved. Because the story says "she's not just fearless, she's also smart, and optimistic, and caring" (or whatever the personality traits are supposed to be, I forget specifics) but we don't really SEE her being those things.

Wow, really excellent point! I think you're right that that would have helped the story. We see a bit of her being especially smart when she's the only one who thinks of climbing the ferris wheel to look for the flag in the game (I think that also impressed Four), but other than that her predominant trait does seem to be bravery. We hear her caring about her friends and see her displeasure at making enemies and particularly for [spoiler: killing Will] at the end, but those are not quite the same thing as bold expressions of kindness.

I do love the way she portrayed at having difficulty letting go of Abnegation's culture though. She feels uncomfortable changing in front of others and wearing tight clothes at first and she can't quite believe that she's physically transformed so much in such a short time, with tattoos and a different hairstyle and all. I thought that was a fun touch. It made her feel more fleshed out to me.

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  • From: New Zealand
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Re: Brave

I think the author just thought Dauntless was so COOL! and BADASS! and her excitement over the whole wearing dark clothes! and leaping off moving trains! and getting tattoos! irritated me. I don't know, I don't remember much about the story now because I read it so fast and disliked it so much that my brain can only dredge up random pieces of information about the story. I do remember one character being so EVIL! that it took me entirely out of the story. Write in a villain, by all means, but give them some kind of humanity/sympathy/motivation beyond mustache-twirling, please. I actually feel that is especially important in YA fiction. The YA phase of one's life is the time when you learn about life not being black and white, so YA books that present the world that way drive me mad.

The world of Divergent made no sense to me, which was a major block for me. (And Tris was annoying, and Four was such blatant teengirlnip that I was quickly bored by him. He's the typical Bad Boy With A Heart Of Gold that we've seen soooooo many times before. Never any suspense there as to a) where he came from and b) whether he'd fall in love with Tris or not.)

But I shouldn't be too critical because writing is hard. I am trying to write a YA dystopian novel just as a response to this, and The Hunger Games, because I've pinpointed mostly what I am not seeing and what I want to see, so rather than just ragging on existing works, I figured I should write what I want to read. But it turns out world-building is super hard, so maybe I should cut Veronica Roth some slack. (Maybe not. She can go cry into her giant stack of money and just not read her Amazon.com reviews at all.)

Last edited by everythingshiny (2014-06-27 00:59:52)

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