• From: Stockton, CA
  • Registered: 2013-03-24
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Re: Plot Hole Film Criticism

I mentioned there is often a correlation. This means there is not in every case. I also specifically mentioned that it suits my tastes overall. "The Matrix got 85 and Batman and Robin got 122" YEAH. For me, Batman and Robin is a piece of crap I never want to see again. The Matrix is flawed, but a gem by comparison.

There's also a lot of mentions of inflating scores. They do it to everything. Thus, there is honesty in the aggregate. You could think of it as 90% fluff and divide the totals by 10 to get a score. But, I wouldn't. Because as I said, CinemaSins counts 'sins'.

'Does not contain a lapdance' may mean the movie is being unnecessarily sexually provocative. 'Wickus isn't growing a prawn arm in this scene' is probably just mentioning that the same actor was in another, better film. And, 'Reading' I think clearly refers to the American public's traditional dislike of reading exposition paragraphs and the fact that a good screenwriter shows you instead of having a character tell you and making you read intro text, to me, is even worse than 'as you know' dialogue.

These 'sins' are not all the same. You may not care about any of them. If so, disregard CinemaSins. If you don't like the delivery, don't watch it. But, if you haven't seen more than one or two or haven't even finished a single video, take a look at the newest Fantastic Four 2 video. It is the newest and I think they are getting better all the time.

Last edited by Jp12x (2014-07-23 16:14:31)

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  • From: Farmington, CT
  • Registered: 2010-05-08
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Re: Plot Hole Film Criticism

I had a professor who offered a spirited defense of Batman and Robin which really informed my views about "plot holes." The idea is that People call Batman and Robin a bad movie because they point out "flaws" without taking into consideration the film's tone. If The Dark Knight took itself less seriously, people would be whining about all the "problems" with that film too. Batman and Robin is the only Batman movie that's aware of the inherent silliness of the concept, and it's the only one to embrace that silliness. I think it came up when someone in the class pointed out a "flaw" in some movie and she said, "Did you ever think that maybe that 'flaw' is there for a reason? Or maybe that 'flaw' fits into the larger context of the film?" In other words, you can't hold every film to identical standards in this way. If nothing else, it's the most boring way imaginable to look at movies.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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  • From: State of Idaho
  • Registered: 2010-12-08
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Re: Plot Hole Film Criticism

Doctor Submarine wrote:

I had a professor who offered a spirited defense of Batman and Robin which really informed my views about "plot holes." The idea is that People call Batman and Robin a bad movie because they point out "flaws" without taking into consideration the film's tone. If The Dark Knight took itself less seriously, people would be whining about all the "problems" with that film too. Batman and Robin is the only Batman movie that's aware of the inherent silliness of the concept, and it's the only one to embrace that silliness. I think it came up when someone in the class pointed out a "flaw" in some movie and she said, "Did you ever think that maybe that 'flaw' is there for a reason? Or maybe that 'flaw' fits into the larger context of the film?" In other words, you can't hold every film to identical standards in this way. If nothing else, it's the most boring way imaginable to look at movies.


That's fair, but perhaps some movies require more forgiveness than others. I am far more forgiving of films that many are critical of, such as The Hobbit, Attack of the Clones, Chronicles of Riddick, among others because of the tone or story. Heck, on Movie Mistakes, Lord of the Rings films are among the top ones for mistakes. They are also my favorite films of all time.

Even one of my favorite TV shows, MASH, has a plethora of mistakes or flaws that I notice. One scene I can recall vividly is in the showers, and a character yanks on the water chain, and the whole prop falls apart. It's brief, but I notice it. It doesn't diminish my enjoyment of the episode or that scene. I laugh and move along.

For me, it is the same thing with all these different criticisms  on the Internet. I laugh and I move on. I'm not looking for serious analysis, because that isn't what the film is about. The larger whole matters more to me. As you have probably noticed, I am an ardent defender of Star Trek Into Darkness, because the tone and themes of the film are ones that I believe are important. That is not an opinion that is shared by many.

So, CS is something that I don't take seriously. I don't regard it as film analysis, and I don't look to it for telling me a film is bad. I have other sources for that. If other people take it seriously, then that is something I cannot help. I simply express my opinion, and let it fall were it may.

Also, I will disagree and maintain that the Adam West Batman movie is far more aware of the silly nature of Batman, and embraces it fully. It is a more enjoyable film, in my opinion, because of the tone of the film. Batman and Robin was perhaps less successful because it tried to bridge the gap from Batman Forever, a more serious and brooding take, and the campier take in Batman and Robin. But, that is a discussion for elsewhere.

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  • From: Farmington, CT
  • Registered: 2010-05-08
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Re: Plot Hole Film Criticism

Good article by Matt Singer on this topic. He makes a great point that these videos rarely cover unpopular movies, because fewer people would watch those videos. Choice bits:

While there are still a few talented essayists carving out a valuable place for themselves in the world of criticism (like Kevin B. Lee, who has contributed video essays to The Dissolve, and recently created a fascinating “premake” of Transformers: Age Of Extinction), and a few video makers who manage to straddle the line between entertainment and intelligent criticism (like Red Letter Media, the creators of an infamously brutal series of video reviews of the Star Wars prequels, and the producers of a sharp, though less-traffic-friendly series called Half In The Bag), it seems like many of the most talented amateur editors have gravitated away from video essays toward supercuts and comedy series, which are easier to digest, and therefore more readily viral on social media. A few years ago, we seemed on the cusp of a revolution in film criticism. Now it seems like we’ve taken a step or two back.

These videos feed on the fact that negativity spreads faster on social media than positivity, and contribute to an increasingly sour air in the world of online movie fandom. CinemaSins’ website proclaims that “sometimes, even great movies suck,” but watching these nitpicking videos regularly suggests that every movie sucks. And if everything sucks, why care about movies at all?

This too, from Sam Adams.

But what bothers me more is the mindset these videos both foster and feed on, one which rewards approaching movies like a vengeful middle-school teacher, red pen clutched firmly in humorless hand. Louis Malle once said that if any of his editors were to win an award, he'd fire them, because if viewers were paying attention to the editing they weren't watching the film. The same goes for the "Everything Wrong With..." crowd, for whom a movie is just an opportunity to crack (not especially) wise. CinemaSins, you're no Crow T. Robot.

But by constantly trying to stay ahead of the movie, nitpickers aren't proving their smarts so much as their shallowness, advertising their inability or unwillingness to engage with a work of art and expecting to be applauded for it.

Last edited by Doctor Submarine (2014-08-25 21:33:20)

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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  • From: State of Idaho
  • Registered: 2010-12-08
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Re: Plot Hole Film Criticism

Good read, and thank you for sharing. This point stood out to me, quite a bit, actually:

And if everything sucks, why care about movies at all?

I don't care about films, in the sense that many around here probably do. I like the films that I like and there are very few times where that opinion changes, the Star Wars films probably being the exception.

I don't regard Plot Hole Criticism, as a thing, in the same way that others do either. Like I said, it's been a thing that I've known since I started analyzing and deconstructing movies. So, it is a thing that does not bother me BECAUSE I'm use to it.

I don't agree with the assessment that CT, or any other nitpicker, is trying to take the fun out of films. I think they are deliberately fishing in the shallow end of the pool. Maybe they take themselves too seriously, I don't know. I just know that I enjoy it, but I also can enjoy deeper analysis (and frequently do) here, and other places.

Like I said before, you mileage may vary, but I'm not in to taking it THAT seriously.

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  • From: Farmington, CT
  • Registered: 2010-05-08
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Re: Plot Hole Film Criticism

fireproof78 wrote:

I don't agree with the assessment that CT, or any other nitpicker, is trying to take the fun out of films. I think they are deliberately fishing in the shallow end of the pool. Maybe they take themselves too seriously, I don't know. I just know that I enjoy it, but I also can enjoy deeper analysis (and frequently do) here, and other places.

Well, like I've said before, what they're "trying" to do and what they're actually doing can be two different things.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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  • From: Red Deer, AB
  • Registered: 2009-11-23
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Re: Plot Hole Film Criticism

Oh for-

Let's not start this again.

Last edited by BigDamnArtist (2014-08-26 03:10:51)

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  • From: State of Idaho
  • Registered: 2010-12-08
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Re: Plot Hole Film Criticism

Doctor Submarine wrote:
fireproof78 wrote:

I don't agree with the assessment that CT, or any other nitpicker, is trying to take the fun out of films. I think they are deliberately fishing in the shallow end of the pool. Maybe they take themselves too seriously, I don't know. I just know that I enjoy it, but I also can enjoy deeper analysis (and frequently do) here, and other places.

Well, like I've said before, what they're "trying" to do and what they're actually doing can be two different things.

Agreed. I just don't think that it is anything new to the world of film criticism. It's more a matter of how much critical weight that you would give to such comments. Maybe they are given too much weight in some circles, but that is something that every person must decide for themselves.

This is more of matter of personal view than what they are "actually" doing. Kind of a personal taste with regards to movies themselves.

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  • From: Tokyo
  • Registered: 2012-08-15
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Re: Plot Hole Film Criticism

Doctor Submarine wrote:

Good article by Matt Singer on this topic. He makes a great point that these videos rarely cover unpopular movies, because fewer people would watch those videos.

See, I thought it was a not very good article by Matt Singer on this topic.

Matt Singer wrote:

CinemaSins’ website proclaims that “sometimes, even great movies suck,” but watching these nitpicking videos regularly suggests that every movie sucks. And if everything sucks, why care about movies at all?

Because it's perfectly possible to enjoy or even love something even if you think it isn't perfect. The Sam Adams article also suffers from the misapprehension that people can only approach movies from one of two possible perspectives (either 100% engaged, or 100% disengaged) and that ambivalence is for pussies.  To continue that quote from the CinemaSins' website,

CinemaSins wrote:

[A] high sin count does not directly translate to a movie's overall quality or enjoyability, and it doesn't reflect our opinion of it.

The reason they pick popular movies is because they're often making videos about movies that they like. The idea that these videos are steeped in and feed on negativity is a valid opinion, but that "negativity" is not based on any ill will towards films by the producers. Considering the time and energy that goes into making these videos (which Matt Singer fails to do in his article; he is singularly obsessed with a profit motive and pretty much ignores the idea of these videos as a creative outlet for the producers), they're probably more likely to do a video on a popular film that they actually enjoyed than an unpopular movie that "deserves" to be ridiculed.

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  • From: Farmington, CT
  • Registered: 2010-05-08
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Re: Plot Hole Film Criticism

Cotterpin Doozer wrote:

The Sam Adams article also suffers from the misapprehension that people can only approach movies from one of two possible perspectives (either 100% engaged, or 100% disengaged) and that ambivalence is for pussies.

You're confusing engagement with quality/appreciation. Not fully engaging with a movie IS a bad thing. It's a complete waste of time. Not engaging at all is worse, but Singer and Adams are making the point that Cinema Sins is pretending to engage with a work by counting those sins, but actually doing so is a far cry from the shallow "analysis" that they produce.

Cotterpin Doozer wrote:

The idea that these videos are steeped in and feed on negativity is a valid opinion, but that "negativity" is not based on any ill will towards films by the producers.

So? That's not the point. They're steeped in negativity towards art.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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  • From: State of Idaho
  • Registered: 2010-12-08
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Re: Plot Hole Film Criticism

Doctor Submarine wrote:
Cotterpin Doozer wrote:

The Sam Adams article also suffers from the misapprehension that people can only approach movies from one of two possible perspectives (either 100% engaged, or 100% disengaged) and that ambivalence is for pussies.

You're confusing engagement with quality/appreciation. Not fully engaging with a movie IS a bad thing. It's a complete waste of time. Not engaging at all is worse, but Singer and Adams are making the point that Cinema Sins is pretending to engage with a work by counting those sins, but actually doing so is a far cry from the shallow "analysis" that they produce.

Cotterpin Doozer wrote:

The idea that these videos are steeped in and feed on negativity is a valid opinion, but that "negativity" is not based on any ill will towards films by the producers.

So? That's not the point. They're steeped in negativity towards art.

They are steeped in negativity towards art as a part of the joke.

I don't think they are pretending to be engaged. I think they are and these are things that they noticed as part of the film watching experience. And part of it is the fact that NO ONE else notices the things that they notice.

It's kind of like how a fan of Western's put it. He called people "shot counters" in Westerns, who would gripe about when the hero used more than six shots without reloading in a scene.

I know this is a point that we will probably disagree on, but it is a matter of how you approach negative comedy. Comedy, of course, is subjective, so, and I think we can agree that CT and others are not funny to everyone.

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