I have to admit Dorkman, I'm quite surprised at your aggression and lack of attention to detail.
You will find that I try to be very specific in my posts. I type what I mean and I mean what I type. I go over my posts three or four times to make sure I've worded it the way I mean to. However, this is a very limited form of communication and easily mis-interpreted so I will clarify and repeat myself as necessary.
DorkmanScott wrote:pastormacman wrote:My boss knows I'm faithful because I have come through for him time and time again.
Would your boss still consider you faithful if you never showed up for work, never returned his calls or emails, and completed the tasks requested of you about as often as would be statistically predicted by pure coincidence?
I believe you are trying to insinuate that God is not faithful because He has not been faithful to you. I ask you, why would He be faithful to you? What agreement do you have with Him? What has He promised you and what have you promised Him?
Lets look at it this way...
Could you say whether or not I am a faithful person? After all, you don't know me. But actually you might. I go under the name "JediPastor" at the TFN boards. I made "The Conflict Within" and "Warriors of the Spirit" (in LCC4 and LCC5 respectively). Two years ago I announced that I was going to make an LCC entry to go up against Ryan. Because of one reason or another I couldn't. Last year I said I was going to try to make an LCC entry. It turns out I didn't then either. Based on my now known track record, would you consider me to be faithful? No. I have proven myself to be unfaithful to you and the TFN boards based on our (limited) relationship and the expectations I gave and failed to fulfill.
On the other hand, I have a different agreement with my boss. He expects me to work certain hours. He expects me to get certain videos done in a certain amount of time. Why does he expect that from me and doesn't expect it from you? Because he knows me. I made an agreement with him. My boss doesn't know you. Why would he think you are faithful?
Likewise, God has proven himself in my life. He has proven Himself faithful based on the promises He has given me, based on the agreement I have made with Him. I know from His Word what He expects from me and I also know form His Word what I should expect form Him. We have an agreement. We have a relationship. He is faithful. You do not see His faithfulness because you do not have a relationship with Him.
DorkmanScott wrote:pastormacman wrote:Faith does not negate proof. Faith is the inevitable outcome of proof.
Faith is actually defined as "belief in the absence of proof." What you mean is evidence.
No, read what I said again. Faith is the inevitable OUTCOME of proof. When something is proven to us, we have faith in it. I have proven myself to my boss and he has faith in me. I think some confusion comes from our limited language. Our language allows for one to be called faithful after they have proven themselves. That definition doesn't exactly concur with the definition you described, but it is still referring to a form of faith.
DorkmanScott wrote:pastormacman wrote:I have experienced things in my life that act as proof on which I have built my faith. Just because you have never experienced such things doesn't mean that my faith is unfounded.
True, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't. It also means that we would not be justified in having faith without having had similar experiences.
I would accept that as a true statement. I cannot expect you to have faith in something you have never experienced. However, has that ever kept you from experiencing something new before? Have you ever gone to a new restaurant, or went to go see a movie based on someone else's description of their experience there? Just because you've never experienced it before doesn't mean you can't take someone else's word for it and try to experience it for yourself.
DorkmanScott wrote:pastormacman wrote:Where God does ask us to have blind faith is in something He has promised that hasn't come true yet.
Now hold on. You just said "God never asks us to have blind faith in Him." Now you're saying he does, sometimes. There is no such thing as degrees of never. Never means never.
This is why people like me don't find these kinds of arguments compelling. They're so rife with internal contradictions that the more they get "explained," the less and less sense they make.
You didn't read my words thoroughly. You instead read what you thought I meant. Read my words.
God doesn't ask us to have blind faith in HIM. He instead describes Himself as faithful and shows you His track record. He tells us to remember His feats in the past. Where He does ask for us to have blind faith is in future events. Not who He is, but what He promises to do. (that is the difference in what I said earlier that you missed) Sometimes He promises us things that look impossible. Take this fictional story as an illustration...
A stranger sends me a text message that says "tomorrow at 3pm, there will be a knock at your door" Do I have any reason to believe that this will happen? Not really, no. However the next day at 3pm there is a knock on my door. Interesting. I get another text from the same person saying the same thing. Sure enough, the next day at 3pm there is a knock on my door. Let's say this goes on for a week. On the eighth day the text message reads "at 8pm tomorrow your doorbell will ring" Do I have any reason to believe that this will happen? My doorbell hasn't rung before this. There is no evidence that my doorbell has rung up to this point. However, I am more apt to believe this will happen now. Why? Because of the proof of the ringing doorbell? No. Because of the faithfulness of the messenger. His messages have been right in the past and I am willing to have more faith in his promises for the future.
Does God ask us to have blind faith in Him? No. Does He sometimes ask us to have blind faith in His promises? Yes. You see, He is not unreasonable. We are able to have blind faith in His promises because He has proven Himself to us to be faithful.
Try this one...Will the sun rise tomorrow morning? I know that science has proven that the earth spins at a certain rate and that can be measured. However, that's all in the past. This very moment is now in the past. How do you know the sun will rise tomorrow? Can you see the future? Is the future measurable? How do you know the sun will rise tomorrow? Do you BELIEVE the sun will rise tomorrow? If so why?
You see it's easy to believe the sun will rise tomorrow because it always has. It's been measured, it's been recorded and it is a scientific fact and there is no reason to think it won't continue to do so into the future. However, faith is still required in any belief in any future event. No future event has proof in the present. Proof only exists after the fact. Faith is what we ALL hold onto until the fact has occurred. That fact then gives us more faith for the next time.
You have faith that the sun will rise in the morning because it has been proven to you day after day.
DorkmanScott wrote:pastormacman wrote:[Healing touch story.]
You had a pain. You don't know what it was because you got no medical diagnosis, so you don't know whether or not it is likely to have gone away on its own. And it went away under circumstances in which you are predisposed to expect it to go away.
It's an interesting anecdote, but surely you recognize that that's all it is. It's especially difficult to give particular credence when every religious tradition has similar stories. Patients of non-religious treatments -- chiropractic and acupuncture, for instance -- also report "feeling better" after treatment, despite the fact that neither treatment has ever been shown to be actually physiologically effective.
Again, it all comes down to the person telling the story. Do you trust them? You don't know me, you don't trust me. Fair enough. But what do you do when someone you do trust starts having these experiences over and over and over and over? At some point you either have to call them a liar or truly question your own stance. It's up to you. believe me or don't. It makes no difference to the fact that those things actually happened to me.
DorkmanScott wrote:pastormacman wrote:Could I be wrong? It's possible. I may be attributing things in my life to God that might actually be caused by something else. Perhaps I cannot scientifically link the events to a supernatural being, but I cannot deny the fact that these events did happen to me. What I have is a theory (belief in the God of the Bible) that happens to fit the facts (events that have happened to me).
No, it doesn't "happen to fit the facts." You make a conscious effort to interpret the facts in a way consistent with your predetermined explanation.
You might be about to accuse me of not knowing you and how dare I assume etc, so let me ask you a question: what if the pain hadn't gone away? What if your pastor had prayed over you, laid on of hands, and the pain had gotten worse and they had to call an ambulance? Would that failure of prayer have shaken your faith at all? I'm guessing not. You more likely would have simply dismissed that part of the experience, and focused on the fact that your pastor showed up in time to call the ambulance, because God apparently told him to.
A true theory is falsifiable. So ask yourself honestly, is there anything that could happen, good or bad, after which you would consider your belief in your god falsified? That you could not explain with "God willed it thus"? If the answer is yes, what? If the answer is no, then you are not actually willing to consider the possibility that you might be wrong.
That is a very good point and a very good way of wording it. I suppose my only answer is that no one event has led me to believe in God. It is an entire conglomeration of experiences. So I would have to say that no one event could get me to not believe in God. As long as my life's experiences continue to follow the promises God has given me in the Bible, I will continue to believe. There have been times when things didn't make sense to me. Where I really doubted some of the things I believed. In the end, the overwhelming majority of my experiences coincide with what God has promised me in His Word. Because of that, I am willing to accept the small things I don't understand on blind faith because I trust the Faithful One who has proven Himself to me over and over.
Now you got onto me pretty aggressively so I responded in kind. I hope in the future you can have an open mind to really read what I am saying and not what you are expecting to hear. I try to be very careful in my wording and I would love to continue our discussion on a more reasonable note.