Topic: Star Wars - A love/hate relationship

Star Wars.

It's why most of us are here. Most of us come from the TFn boards, more specifically the fan-films section.
Meaning that most of us love, or loved Star Wars at one point in time, and wanted to create our own movies set in that universe, to varying degree of success.
Some of us made silly lightsaber duels, some of us made entire flipping movies, some fought in the LCC, and some wrote scripts so epic they were never even made.

But what binds it all together, is Star Wars.

When it was announced that Disney took over the franchise, I was, at the time, what some would relate to as being "over star wars". The OT was great, the EU was fantastic, the PT was decent at best, clone wars was a thing that just sort of happened that I didn't like, and that was really it.
Disney of course announced the inevitable, such as a sequel trilogy happening, along with tv-shows and spinoff films.
A hope sort of sparked. I remember enjoying VII for what it is. Rogue One is still one of my absolute favorites, VIII just as much. Solo Was not great. Not bad, not good. Decently done given the problems it faced during production.
To be fair, I still don't understand why they went with that film at all, as there's so much more interesting stuff in that universe that doesn't revolve around the characters in the mainline films. IX, however, is a different beast entirely, and one we've discussed to death. I don't like it. I did the first time around, but I was too engulfed by emotions of the saga ending to see the flaws I saw the second time I watched it.

So, after that, it was a bit meh. Rogue 1 was great, but since Solo more or less tanked, they killed off a lot of potential spin-offs that seemingly could be great.

Of course, The next big thing was Mandalorian, which is downright amazing, which sort of sparked a new interest in the franchise. I'd find myself looking at fan films online, some old, some new, some good, some horrible. As per usual, in other words.
After season 2 of Mandalorian, I was determined to give Clone Wars a second chance. Owen has told me time and time again that it gets better, and I've never believed him. Nevertheless, it felt like the right thing to do. I wanted more Star Wars. I initially thought I'd watched around 4 seasons of Clone Wars, but upon watching, I realised I was closer to 1,5 seasons. Gave it up before it got a chance to show me what it could do. And rightfully so. The first season or so, is absolutely not a good start. It's a childrens show, telling stories out of order, which will confuse you in the beginning, but then it's like James Bond in a way; just stories. That happened in the same era.
Now, after the first 4 episodes, my girlfriend didn't really feel like continuing, but I was still content to finish this show, so I kept watching. And so did she. In fact, more often than not, she'd be the one to say "one more!" at 1 in the morning, when we both had to go to work the next day.
The show got goddamn good. Sure, there are the odd shite episodes, that are just fillers, but most shows of this scope do, and it doesn't kill the mood at all, as they're few and far between.
I also did know that the show was cancelled, and brought on Rebels instead(which I'm currently working my way through, albeit at a slower pace), and that they somehow managed to save the show, and bring on the final seasons they had planned to do.
Season 6 was a good ending to the show. Leaving it open, with possibilities of more seasons down the line, but also a very open ending that could just mean "these are the stories we wished to tell".  But my fucking lord, season 7 brought it. The 4 final episodes, popularly known as "The Siege of Mandalore" are some of the best stuff I've seen in any TV-show. Sure, I'm biased. It's fucking Star Wars. It's also an ending to a 7 season show, and of course doesn't neccessarily stand on its own, but damn.
The first episode of the story opens with a black screen, and the original '77 "A Lucasfilm Limited Production". That's when I paused the episode, closed all the curtains, shut off all the lights, and turned the volume up. I knew I was in for something very special. And very special indeed. Siege of Mandalore is a-ma-zing. I cried like a little bitch at the end, not because it was full of twists and sadness, but the way it ended is so fucking closed. So personal. So integrated into Revenge of the Sith that now it feels like you can't have one without the other. It helped me enjoy ROTS much more than I ever have, because of Clone Wars.

A kids show, they said. A show that is better than most of the movies. A show that made me feel like Ewan, Hayden, Ian, Frank, Temuera and Samuel somehow did worse interpretations of their characters than animators and voice actors did. Of course, it's well-discussed how Lucas' directing isn't stellar, but watching ROTS somehow felt wrong. The characters looked wrong, their voices felt wrong, and they were too different to what I now feel is the perfect editions; Fucking Clone Wars.

Now, Rebels, on the other hand, is a different beast altogether. Its animation style is close to CW, but it's too cartoony, and the animation itself feels very "staccato". The lightsabers are too damn thin, they sound weird, and it's just too damn stylized. The story isn't great either, and I feel like the characters should be characters we'd at least heard of from CW. Kanan, the Jedi, for instance, isn't a poorly written character, but it's told that he lost his master in order 66, a master I don't remember hearing about in any other media. Kanan himself also wasn't a youngling during the CW, so he sort of feels expendable. If he had been a youngling with ONE line in CW, and his master had been in ONE episodes, it would have felt like it was more connected, which sadly, it doesn't. I'm midway through season 2 now, and will finish it, but as I mentioned, at a much slower pace.

There's also a 3rd animated show, called "Resistance". A show much more aimed for children, in way of style and adverticing, and judging by it getting one season, it's not something I feel like picking up.


Until Recently, my head space was loving the OT era, finding the PT era okay, and not giving two shits about the ST era. Now, because of CW, I'm loving that era. The clones, the jedi, the Nightsisters, the separatists, and all the plots and stories in that era has so much depth to it, that I didn't ever think was possible. As for the Sequel era; it's boring. Couldn't care less about Resistance, don't want more Rey, Finn or Poe. It's just too shallow a trilogy, even though I do love TLJ, it doesn't save the entire trilogy, especially after that end. And it's not because "STAR WARS IS A KID'S FRANCHISE DAMMIT!". ANH is a classic tale in a new and exciting universe. ESB is a darker, more hopeless sequel that somehow managed to outshine it's predecessor. ROTJ had its issues, but was a good ending to a trilogy, and still stands as my favorite, regardless of its poorer execution. TPM is definitely a film aimed more towards children and teenagers, but even that had a decent plot. (Although a disruption of communications can mean a great many things, Sio Bibble!) AotC also had some darker undertones, but a boring love story, and stale acting didn't save it much. And the plot wasn't even close to TPM, which is saying something. ROTJ is not a childrens movie either. It certainly didn't tank, and although it's not the best of the 9 movies, it did fairly well, plot wise, considering what was set up in the prior two films. It was an impossible task, made well. It's not great, but it ain't shit either.
TFA is a remake of ANH, and we all know it. It was too damn safe, and had a female protagonist now known as Mary Sue. It's not a great film. But it did set up the story, which I found could go in an interesting direction. TLJ took some bold chances, and split the fanbase because of it, choices I felt absolutely on board with. Killing the Big Bad like it's nothing? Come on, that's just cool. Then of course, the biggest cop-out in movie history happened. PALPATINE IS BACK! And all I have to say about it now is... .but why? Even the Trevorrow script didn't mention palpatine, and instead pitted Kylo Ren against Rey(Rey PALPATINE, YES THAT WAS A GOOD TWIST, THANK YOU SO MUCH JJ YOU PIECE OF SH) in a much more interesting story.


Alright, that was a long rant.

TLDR; Go Watch Clone Wars. Get exited for The Bad Batch. Don't get excited over anything that takes place in the sequel era. But also; mandalorian is great and we all agree on that already. Love some of it. Hate some of it. s'all good.

Last edited by Tomahawk (2021-04-04 11:41:12)

Re: Star Wars - A love/hate relationship

I came for the rant, stayed for the writing, and commented because yeah fuck Sio Bibble.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Star Wars - A love/hate relationship

Well written dude.

CW is really good, sometimes (especially, as you say, earlier) bad, and sometimes so very, very great. Rebels, meanwhile, keeps a more consistent quality level, and that level is "good, and able to see great from where it's standing".

I watched Resistance; season 2 is better because Kazuto isn't trying to be something he isn't, which is the sort of awkward thing used for humor through lots of the first season that I am uncomfortable watching. And with Oscar Isaac himself voicing Poe, you can tell he's having fun with this silly kid's show, which helps with the episodes he's in.

Boter, formerly of TF.N as Boter and DarthArjuna. I like making movies and playing games, in one order or another.

Re: Star Wars - A love/hate relationship

Love me a good Star Wars rant. I decided a while ago that it peaked with Empire, and that magical Kishner/Brackett&Kasadan combo was never coming back. Disney did a great job of replicating that drama nearly bit for bit.

I watched the Mandolorian with Cait, cause she bought it, but I made myself a promise not to pay for anymore Star Wars until they have a more interestingly diverse production team.

I'm kinda over what 50 year old white guys have to say about lightsabers.

(I know next to nothing about the production of the cartoons)

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Re: Star Wars - A love/hate relationship

Goddammit, I started this post saying I'll write a long post when I have the time for it, then I proceeded to write a long post. I'll get back to it. Great words, Tom. I think all of us here can write about every period of their life just by talking about SW.

Sébastien Fraud
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Re: Star Wars - A love/hate relationship

I’ve been rereading the X-wing novels for the first time in almost twenty years. They’re really enjoyable. Corran Horn is one best characters in the saga.

Extended Edition - 146 - The Rise Of Skywalker
VFX Reel | Twitter | IMDB | Blog

Re: Star Wars - A love/hate relationship

Also a great conversation starter after exiting an airport.

#justmontpellierthings

Sébastien Fraud
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Re: Star Wars - A love/hate relationship

I could probably write out an entire thesis about my feelings towards Star Wars, but instead, I will say just one thing about The Clone Wars.

I told you so.

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Re: Star Wars - A love/hate relationship

What do you know, you weren't even born when the prequels came out.

Sébastien Fraud
Instagram |Facebook

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Re: Star Wars - A love/hate relationship

What do you mean? 1999 was only...

Oh god...

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Re: Star Wars - A love/hate relationship

Owen_Ward wrote:

I could probably write out an entire thesis about my feelings towards Star Wars, but instead, I will say just one thing about The Clone Wars.

I told you so.

Glory incarnate.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Star Wars - A love/hate relationship

Minor Update:

Just finished season 2 of Rebels last night, and it got good. Weird thing is I remember it just being good all the way. Season 1 was half-good at times, and season 2 is a butt load of meh, but that finale was pretty damn awesome. On to season 3!!

Re: Star Wars - A love/hate relationship

I actually started writing something about my relationship with Star Wars, but then I realised that it would end up being a series of essays separated into different time periods and well, nobody's got time for that.

"My relationship with Star Wars" would make for a good discussion though, maybe in some kind of audio conversation - I think they call them podcasts? Just sayin'....

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Re: Star Wars - A love/hate relationship

....My own feelings with Star Wars are bizarrely aligned with Tom's, except I'm still at the point of "not yet" with CW.
I get how it could be good, probably is, but I can't get over the episodes I've seen (my brother made me watch a few) showcase so many problems that could be instantly solved with someone grabbing a physical object with the Force, with all those someones conveniently forgetting to do that.
Grab the plot MacGuffin from the villain? Nope. Use the Force to wrench open the blast doors while *chasing* the villain? HELL YEAH!

It gets annoying tongue And I'm not suggesting the plot should include those easy Forced solutions: I'm saying the plot problems shouldn't be something easily solved with telekinesis in the first place.

But otherwise, I have almost Tom's exact same thoughts about every single part of the franchise.

Witness me!

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Re: Star Wars - A love/hate relationship

Saniss, Owen, I'm waiting.

Re: Star Wars - A love/hate relationship

Owen_Ward wrote:

"My relationship with Star Wars" would make for a good discussion though, maybe in some kind of audio conversation - I think they call them podcasts? Just sayin'....

*cough*

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Re: Star Wars - A love/hate relationship

Alright. It's been almost a year. In that time, I've had time to reflect on Clone Wars, complete Rebels, get on board with The Bad Batch, and watch The Book of Boba Fett.


I stand by all my previous statements about TCW. It's hella good. I'm definitely rewatching it all at later date.
Rebels, is still different. While I did tear up at the right moments in the finale, the finale was still a bit of a cop-out, saving characters that seemed unsaveable. Animation style never got me, but damn there are some very, VERY good bits with returning characters(Although Disney somehow decided to re-dub Palpatine somewhere down the line. Now, usually, I'd be all for Ian McDiarmid voicing Palpatine, but I don't think he dood as good a job as Sam Witwer, and it bugs me out) in there, leaving the widest of grins on my face. I have my favorite characters, and some of them are in this, and I love that. The return of TCW characters are mostly done well, albeit Hondo wasn't his usual self, which made my girlfriend not be entirely on board.

All in all, I'd still recommend Rebels, but don't expect it to reach TCW levels. I think some part of it may be because apart from TCW characters returning, we don't KNOW these characters. Sabine, Kanan, Hera, Zeb, Chopper and Ezra make a good ensemble cast, don't get me wrong, but TCW brought on characters you already knew from before, and you already know the fate of most of them, bringing a more emotional journey to the table. With Rebels, that wasn't really the case. Sure, Leia and Lando do pop by, but it's only for fan service, and doesn't really push the story forwards, in that regard. The ending is a bit on the dividing side, tampering with things not been in SW until suddenly it is, taking the force to new supernatural levels that I didn't really care for. I accept it, but doing so opens much more windows in the rest of the saga that suddenly don't make sense. Make sense? Moving on.

The Bad Batch has no right being that good.
That's right, I said it. The show is set directly, er, actually, during the siege of Mandalore, and opens up with Order 66. Where some, shall we say 'faulty' clones aren't affected by it. From here on, it explores rogue clones trying to cope in a universe that wants them dead, constantly being recognized, and having to bounty hunt for supplies, whilst the Empire is slowly revealing its plan to replace expensive clones, with expendable storm troopers.
It explores some of the darker places of the SW universe, and mostly returns to TCW form, with all voice actors returning(It's clones, so it's mostly just one guy of course, but there's more!), and it looks absolutely stunning. It's like if someone took the clone wars art and animation style, and just hit the HD button. Think back to the transition from PS2 to PS3. Or an SD TV to an HD TV. That's how it FEELS. Obviously TCW was in HD, for the most part, but it honed its style over 7 seasons, and Bad Batch just continued that, epically.


So,
the rancor in the room.

The Book of Boba Fett.
Or, as it should be called: Mandalorian - The Book of Boba Fett.
The show isn't horrible. By no means. But following Mando S2 is no easy task, and while it's amazing to see Temuera Morrison again, in this, he somehow doesn't feel right for the role. It's not that he's old, that he's rusty, he's just not great as Boba anymore.(of course, some may argue he never was, and that he was an after thought snuck into the original trilogy after the Prequels retconned Boba, but, I mean, let it go, right?)
Add to that, that the show is cutting between two timelines that aren't really that far apart, and that Boba doesn't seem to have any other motivation than an Iznogoud complex, and they really should've explored that bit a helluva lot more during the early episodes. Because the first 4 episodes, could have been a season. That's where they should have fleshed out the character, given a proper backstory, and dealt with WHY he wants so desperately to replace Jabba. Instead, we get an old and broken Boba living in the desert, trying to do right by the Tuskens, that's suddenly collecting tribute and protection from the crime lords of Mos Espa. Not to mention he has a Power Rangers biker gang on his side, that, while feels fresh, feels like they belong in a different series.
Then, in episode 5, it takes a turn. Now, SPOILERS(and I can't be fucked hiding it here, I'm gonna assume you either don't care, or have already watched it. It's a Star Wars thread) AHEAD: It's suddenly Mandalorian S3. Not just is it two episodes where Boba makes cameo appearances, it's also the return of Grogu, which suddenly diminishes his departure, because he's back, and it doesn't actually make sense. Don't get me wrong, the episode in question is absolutely beautiful, and has other returning characters gracefully done, but it ruins the fact that his departure was some of the strongest in the series, and also means it's absolutely compulsory to watch this before the ACTUAL season 3 of Mandalorian, which I'm guessing a lot of "casuals" wouldn't know, and the conclusion to Boba Fett, while having it's CLONE WARSIAN moments, doesn't feel like it's earned, or that it builds up to anything else in the future.
Sure, I may be wrong of course, what do I know. But all in all, I've revisited Mando, and I don't really see myself revisiting this anytime soon.


Although, soon..?

Obi-Wan. May. Hyped. Even though it's Ewan McGregor voicing him, and not James Arnold Taylor, but I can't win everything, can I.

Re: Star Wars - A love/hate relationship

Bringing Grogu back wasn’t half as bad as having him n Luke do ‘recovered-memories’ hypnosis therapy. Absolutely zero of Luke’s dialog sounds like it is coming from an irritating kid who just killed his father (other than perhaps his left field question about Yoda’s vernacular), but instead sounds like he’s been possessed by Mace Windu and has decided that his trouble was he wasn’t pious enough. I can’t imagine Han & Leia could stand to be around him for more than 30 seconds at a time.

Is it weird that they’re building the hut which will be the birthplace of Kyle Ren?

No don’t look at that it’s totally normal

Last edited by Beeg (2022-02-28 19:55:21)

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Re: Star Wars - A love/hate relationship

Yeah, I really wish they'd had, uh, a human deliver Luke's lines.

Boter, formerly of TF.N as Boter and DarthArjuna. I like making movies and playing games, in one order or another.

Re: Star Wars - A love/hate relationship

I'm surprised at how good the synthetic voice was.
The reason it fell flat for me, was the audio mix. They didn't QUITE manage to tie Luke's dialogue to the scene, which made it sound a bit like adr. It's almost there, but just not.

Re: Star Wars - A love/hate relationship

It looks and sounds... fine.

It's just like listening to Darth Vader read poetry or recount his memories of Padme; the writing is bonkers and IMMEDIATELY pulls you out of the scene because it reads as Luke being replaced by an alien replicant.

The effect is brillllliant. He looks perfect down to the motorcycle accident makeup coverups, its perfect. And they rub in your face with loooooong lingering shots that are like loooooookathiiiiimmmmmmm. And he looks great.

And then he opens his mouth and...

and...

Mark Hamill is a working actor.

Give him these lines and ask him if they make ANY sense.

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Re: Star Wars - A love/hate relationship

«But fear is their greatest ally". Mark Hamill always complained about the damn dialogue xD