The Avengers (Page 3 of 9)

The more I read this thread, the more my opinion evolves.

I don't think there's anything wrong with characters being sexy, be they male or female, as long as they're functional and developed people.

I think the avengers poster falls into a grey area; yes Black Widow is posed provocatively but having seen the film, and now understanding her character, that in itself doesn't bother me. In context to the rest of the scene however, it changes the interpretation of her status.

For a long time comics have been a juvenile pursuit, and perhaps that's fed into the stereotype of women as mothers, or strange sexual things. In general young men do not spend a huge amount of time in introspection (that comes later). However just because it's always been that way, doesn't mean it should stay as such. I think the media which caters to younger audiences, be they male or female, needs to take much greater responsibility for how it presents genders, race, creed, and orientation.

Small things matter, nothing changes through inaction.

Last edited by Dave (2012-11-22 18:28:01)

No, that's not the point. The point is the uneven treatment females get in comics. I am 100% with Dorkman on this one, and have yet to see convincing arguments otherwise. The point is not whether or not woman will find them sexually attractive-the point is that they are highlighting specific aspects of anatomy of women and women only-its sexism because male characters are treated in an idealized form, as Dorkman has been saying, while women are treated the same almost across the board.

The argument that "what is sexual to one is not to another" would work if we were talking about different poses of females too. But, females are consistently shown in tight outfits, highlighting their rears and their boobs. As Trey pointed out, you can portray Black Widow looking just as cool as her male counterparts without the money shot.

But, the marketing seems to aim at making Black Widow the token sex eye candy, as even the action figures portray her with plunging shirt line and in impractical poses i.e. no weapons or fighting pose, just standing for looks. Perhaps the closest in the two poses I've seen is between Black Widow and Captain America and is shown below:
http://www.sideshowtoy.com/?page_id=448 … ss_300043#
vs
http://www.sideshowtoy.com/?page_id=448 … _featureA#
I'm trying to be fair here, but Black Widow is not the only one who suffers from unfair and sexist portrayals. Characters like Black Cat, Power Girl, even Wonder Woman (for added sexism Wonder Woman's one weakness is for her to be tied up by a man).

I also want to take the time to address idealization, though Dorkman has made great arguments about it. Men are portrayed as being in an idealized:

Captain America is stated to be in the constant state of physical perfection, his body the peak of humanity. While there are women who can find this attractive, the actual act of being sexually aroused by the image of Cap is not just a matter of seeing Cap with his shirt off. Despite the poses on romance novels, that is not the foundation of female sexual fantasies. An image is not (generally speaking-there are exceptions of course) enough to kick start female sexual arousal, while for males it is more than enough (Megan Fox is proof enough of this).
Comic book writers have known for years that sex sells (you can thank behaviorists for this insight in to human psychology) and female characters have been drawn as such. Tight fitting costumes may be the norm, but females are shown to be far more provocatively, far more sexualized, than male counterparts.

Okay, let's say that men are sexualized in this industry too (they're not, but let's do with it). If we're talking about sexism you have to look at it within a larger context. Are male characters going to have their agency taken away from them time and time again? No. Are male readers lacking for representation in an industry that has been repeatedly hostile to them? No.
I'm fine with some female characters being sexy. I'm not okay with every female character being set dressing.

Also everything Dorkman has said.  Way to be on top of things, bro.

Last edited by Allison (2012-11-23 00:01:46)

Same here. I thought my Handbrake/VLC Player needed updating, but it turns out the Avengers DVD specifically cannot be played on computers. Because everyone who bought the Blu-Ray is a potential pirate. Fuck us, right?

Have you guys tried a program called AnyDvd (or Anydvd HD for Blu-Ray). It allows you to bypass the HDCP on the disc so you can watch it on your computer.

Unfortunately it's not free, but you can get the trial to see if it works for you, it does for me.

Last edited by Withkittens (2012-11-23 00:46:14)

I'll just leave this here.

Finished the commentary. I'm stunned that there are apparently large numbers of people who haven't heard of shawarma. I could probably walk to three shawarma places from my house...

...ok I just checked the internets and apparently I live in 'the shawarma capital of the world', or at least outside of the middle east, so I have sampling bias. Anyway, it's delicious. And a bit sketchy since they saw the meat off this large rotating column of meat of unknown history. A delicious large rotating column of meat. And then they add garlic and who cares what else and stuff it into a pita.

I wonder if much of the dressing and posing of women on comics covers (because internal art tends to be a lot less provocative) isn't done just because it's a shorthand for femininity. What I mean by this is that rather than an intentional effort to draw a woman as a sex object, the artist may simply draw the character as a figure with over-emphasised female features (akin to adding 2 circles on a stick figure to make it female) and putting her in what is perceived to be a feminine pose, or rather a non-masculine one. Artists then end up relying on these features and don't truly ever develop a skill for drawing female characters with the same expressive range, such that an alluring character translates into 'larger lips' or strong willed becomes 'longer hair'. Beauty especially just becomes idealised, and it's a short step from idealised to sexism. I bet if many artists changed the stances of their females to more natural looking ones, they'd just look masculine. And with close-ups of faces, I bet if the women weren't drawn with long hair and Julia Roberts lips, we'd have trouble telling that they were female.

I don't think the Catwoman movie was sexist. Although I've missed most of it because my eyes, ears and the empty chair beside me were bleeding each time a new frame appeared onscreen.

Go on, what mess?

Last edited by Lamer (2012-11-23 02:36:32)

You didn't mention the comics (I'm guess you're not defending them?) but I will take every opportunity to share this photo:

I have also blocked most of the film from my memory, but here's what I think: it took what could have been a really empowering story (fighting back against a patriarchal beauty standard, ladies with grey morals, etc.) and turned it into a party about Halle Berry's thighs in ripped leather.  It wasn't so much the text of the film that I object to (on a feminist level) but the fact that it is all shot with the male gaze in mind.   

Here's a good write up of sexualization in DC right now, regarding Catwoman and Starfire specifically.  http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/09/2 … erheroine/

There's more to read about this if you want to dig around the interwebs for it, but here's your summary:

Dan Didio refuses to allow any of the DC writers to use Steph Brown or Cass Cain. But Cass and Steph aren’t just not allowed to be Batgirl, they’re not allowed to exist at all.  He said it's because Babs is "more iconic" than the other two but a) Babs was added only after he ordered the removal of Steph and b) that's still no excuse to remove Steph from her well-received position as Spoiler AND not let her be a Robin anymore.

Also, by having Babs be Bat Girl again, DC managed to erase years of amazing character development and everything she had as Oracle in favor of giving Babs her youth and legs back.

I think Judd Winick is demonstrative of the problem as a whole. This guy, who is paid to make Catwoman an interesting and well rounded character, said that she "comes down to about three things: she's beautiful, she wears a very tight costume, and she steals".  That's not how you pass the Plinkett test, Judd.

Last edited by Allison (2012-11-23 04:02:05)

Just out of curiosity, where do you live thats considered the shawarma capital of the world? But yea, there are a ton of shawarma places here as well. And agreed on the partial sketchiness, but they're usually pretty cheap so I'm willing to overlook it