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I'd agree, this one did sort of seem to be the missing the classic DiF, "Okay, so we hate it, but others kinda like it, why the fuck?"
There did seem to be an overwhelming amount of "Oh god no! What the fuck? Uuuuuugh." Going on. Which is my perhaps, unique way of basically restating what everyone else has already said.
I thought you guys made a valiant attempt to see the good in this mess. I walked out (of the 2D version) just going "meh" and likening it to Tom Cruise's The Last Samurai, which was a lot better and didn't have all the white guilt (or the same kind of white guilt, anyway). Only later, when other people started gushing over it, did I start to hate it. And then when I saw District 9, I really hated Avatar.
You guys didn't do much of a comparison, but the films actually tread a lot of the same ground. But District 9 deals with it in fairly realistic terms, with aliens who are really alien and not blue Elves.
BTW, giving the bad guy his own, different avatar would have crossed the line into Zarban's Fuckin' Cool Extrapolation(TM): In a world where X happens, this story is about X to the Xth power! Example: In a world where a clan of vampires stalks the night, Wesley Snipes is a half-vampire vampire hunter... because that's fuckin' cool!
Last edited by Zarban (2013-10-29 04:28:09)
SciFi fantasy.... StarWars, a Universe of Magic Beans! Avatar just needs it's Empire sequel.
The armed forces don't put grunts into Space Shuttles, that expensive stuff is reserved for scientists. So I was not surprised to see Marines in more servicable battle tolerant mech suits. They established the expensive of the Avatars (and their stupid DNA afinity problems) early on. You can put anyone in a mech but just one pilot in an Avatar.
I took my 8year old kid to it AFTER seeing it once myself. I just couldnt take him to another planet in this life time, that really is as close as it gets. Yeah I thought the 3D was Kick Ass!!!! A m a z i n g.
I found myself wondering how they made that amazing dying lizard at the end, then realised that it was CG, then realised so was the ENTIRE forest and ALL the inghabitants, that thought really stayed with me. I havent been that well fooled for a looooong time in a cinema.
The trees werent the most wooden thing on Pandora!
I've read a lot of people saying that the DiF guys didn't really say why people actually liked the film, but I'm fairly certain they did so near the front of the commentary.
The reason Avatar did so well is because it appeals to the common audience in a very OOH-LOOK-AT-THAT way. It's high spectacle on a simple story -- a night out at the circus for the American family.
Now, what I don't understand is why The Dark Knight did just as well (well, Avatar topped it) at the box office, yet had just complex enough of a story to keep people interested. Is it the power of an already known character mixed with an amazing story or was TDK really just lightning in a bottle?
I think it's a bit of both. The only reason Avatar does better than TDK is because of James Cameron's star power and OOH-LOOK-IT'S-IN-3D.
I think people who say "Avatar appeals to the morons" aren't giving the referenced morons enough credit. It would have done as well if it had executed itself just a hair more intelligently.
http://blastr.com/2010/08/those-avatar-sequels-came.php
I think it was Teague who said that he'd like to see the "novel" that the film was based off of, with all of the extra information and character stuff that the movie cut. Well, James Cameron is writing a novelization HIMSELF, because he's fucking James Cameron, and he refuses to let some tie-in novelist asshole ruin his story, because THAT'S HOW HE ROLLS.
Seriously, he goes out of his way to shit all over tie-in novelists. They're not THAT bad.
Now, what I don't understand is why The Dark Knight did just as well.
Dark Knight is a real drama that happens to also be a comic book superhero movie. Even so, it's not nearly as sophisticated as, say, Nolan's own Memento. That's not to say that "more sophisticated" always means "better." Star Wars and The Wizard of Oz are two of the greatest films ever made and are very, very emotionally simple.
But I think that emotionally simple stories only work if the emotions make sense at that level of simplicity. In Star Wars, Luke wants to avenge his family and save a pretty girl. In WoZ, Dorothy just wants to get home. In Avatar, Jake wants to follow orders like a good soldier but can't deny his feelings for the natives' nobility and freedom, and whatsherface changes her mind about him because he's more impressive than she thought— I don't know. It just crumbles in your hands worse than The Matrix does.
Last edited by Zarban (2010-08-11 21:03:25)
Finally saw this. I haven't listened to the commentary just yet but thought I'd put my initial reaction to the film itself.
An awful first half. I couldn't believe how bad some of the early dialogue was, and how clumsy and forced the exposition was as well. And that godawful narration....
That said, there are some very powerful moments in the film; lots of wow moments and crowning moments of awesome which I'm pretty sure is what made the film so successful. It's good manipulative entertainment.
And the world looks great, so great in fact that I wish Cameron had removed all the human elements from the story and created a sort of Apocalypto -like movie. Granted this would have changed the core story, but then that feels like a regurgitated Dances with Wolves anyway.
That said, my favourite 'human' bits were probably the video logs. A bit of wry humour in there and probably the best acting from Worthington.
Did you see the original theatrical release (now out on DVD) or the special edition re-release? Just curious.
Is the re-release even out yet?
Really? Wow...that one just totally flew under the radar. I don't think it was even in theaters out here.
Did you see the original theatrical release (now out on DVD) or the special edition re-release? Just curious.
The one out on DVD/Bluray so I assume the original theatrical release.
Also, I thought the film was way too long, so the idea of it being even longer doesn't bode well for pacing. The whole middle section with him learning how to be one of them just went on and on.
And on!
Further, it's a very predictable story. By making human Jake a cripple and having the human leaders be total shits, Cameron undercuts any tension in the story. The 'going native' turn is a foregone conclusion, there's no question that that is what's going to happen. And without an internal conflict, it's just not very interesting when it does happen. Remember all those undercover cop stories, where the policeman wrestles with divided loyalties and the story is much more powerful? There's none of that here.
I still get the feeling that the special edition is supposed to have all those bits of character development that were thrown to the cutting room floor, i.e. making the already 3 hour-long movie into a longer movie that's bearable, but i guess I have to wait to see if that's true. (Until I hear from someone about it)
EDIT: Actually, I just checked a review of the special edition. It's only 9 minutes longer. Because, of course, 9 minutes would have made the difference.
...
Yeah, no.
Last edited by JackalBane (2010-09-12 12:16:16)
I read a review of the special edition that stated the extra footage wasn't anything special. Nothing that adds character moments like Cameron's previous special editions. Abyss was his best one IMO. I've also read that the Special Edition Blu-Ray, which will be released in November, will have 14 minutes of extra material. Some of which is gonna be the "Earth Open" from the script. After I read that little bit of info, I figured I'd just wait til November.
Good commentary. I feel you covered all the flaws of the story and why it's not a 'great film'. I very much doubt that this will be on any of those greatest films list - and because of the very visual CGI nature of the film I think it will date very quickly.
Anyhow, I can't help but think that the very premise of the film is founded on rocky ground. If Pandora is so hostile to humans and is occupied by bothersome natives, and the human corporation are a bunch of shits, why did they not just glass the entire planet years ago?
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0044XV3R8
I fell into the "hate it" crowd with this one just after the release, but DAMN this thing looks sexy. Like switch said above, Cameron's special editions are often far better than the original cuts. The Abyss is a great example. In the original script, that Earth opening was fantastic. It really grounded the film, and gave it more palpable stakes, stuff that was sorely lacking from the theatrical cut.
So, as surprised as I am to say this, I'm willing to give this one another shot. Cameron had never let me down before this, so I'll give him one more chance.
I still get into arguments with some of my best friends over this movie. The friends in question still think the movie is a good film. I say it's just a good looking popcorn thing. The first time I saw the flick, I was jazzed about it, but then I thought about it; and things didn't make sense. Also, it took me an hour and a half to get used to the 3D! A fucking HOUR AND A HALF! That just ruins it for me. I told my friends that by it's nature, 3D film is limited by the fact that it's... on film. IF you want to be able to immerse yourself in the world of the story, go get in a holideck for Crying out Loud!
Okay... I'll stop her before this turns into a rant post.
It can be both a good film and a shallow film. Those aren't mutually exclusive.
I love (love) Avatar, and can't wait to see the extended version of the movie.
This 'family language audio track,' is this something they're doing these days?
I actually enjoyed Clash of the Titans more. Big flashy movies are nothing new, Avatar just does it a bit better than most.
But a longer cut? This movie needs to be shorter. (And I don't often ask for that - hell, I want 4 hour versions of the LOTR movies).
Wow, y'all are making me feel like a dummy for liking Avatar, but there you go. I like Avatar.
It can be both a good film and a shallow film. Those aren't mutually exclusive.
I can agree with that.
Wow, y'all are making me feel like a dummy for liking Avatar, but there you go. I like Avatar.
Didn't mean to. Sowwy. 
I like Avatar
You guys just like blue boobies.
This movie needs to be shorter.
There's no reason to hold anything back on home video. The "never before seen footage!" thing helps sales. And this isn't Chinatown, to me the visuals are the best part of the movie. If there's cool looking stuff they cut out for time, might as well throw it back in now. It's like when Robert Wise tightened up Star Trek: TMP for the director's cut. I was like: It don't make no sense. It's already the slowest movie ever made, do you think trimming 20sec from the cloud scene will make it more appealing to civilians? Only the fans who already like it will ever watch it. Make it twice as long!
Laserdiscs used to have a thing where you could program what version of the film you wanted to see. Some chapters were only a couple of seconds long to accomplish this. Now you have to wait for them to release different versions; usually just long enough since the last version in order to get you to buy it again.
[rant]And what ever happened to the 'jog / shuttle' function on remotes? You used to be able to just flick your thumb on the spring-loaded wheel to rewind. It literally took ½ sec, now you have to press 'rew', press again to cycle through 4x etc. It's fucking retarded.[/rant]
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