You are not logged in. Please login or register.
Friends In Your Head | Forums → Off Topic → A Song of Ice and Fire (BOOK READERS ONLY; MAJOR SPOILERS AHEAD)
Uh...is it just me or did the show just destroy Jaime's character?
No, it's not just you. I'm becoming increasingly disillusioned with D&D's handling of any sort of morally grey or ambiguous characters like Jaime or Stannis. They seem hellbent on making Daenerys the only "good" character on the show and that annoys the shit out of me.
Settle down, folks.
Jaime, in both book and tv show, SHOVED A KID FROM A WINDOW. That's how we met him. Getting his hand chopped off, and taking a road trip with Brianne does not redeem that. In fact, even in the book he has yet to be anywhere near redeemed. He's complex, yes, and when we leave off with him he's trying to make better choices, but the needle is still far, far, FAR bent towards being a shitbag.
In fact, by inserting Jaime at the Purple wedding, D&D allow him to show concern for Joffrey that he frankly never does in the books. He has one sorta nice conversation with Tommen, and that's it. He talks about never feeling any real connection to the kids he fathered with Cersei.
Jaime has depth, and he's fascinating. He is also an immoral creep. To call Jaime "morally ambiguous," is an insult to the concepts of morality and ambiguity.
+2 
What Eddie said. And Tyrion and Jon Snow are other characters who still have the (mostly) moral high ground, it's not just Danaerys.
Also, book readers, just as Jaime's tribulations of last season sorta made him seem sympathetic, we all know the same is about to happen to Cersei. So story-wise, this is the wake-up call to remind us that Jaime's still a creep, and meanwhile start to transfer that sympathy to Cersei.
It also goes with the theme of the episode, which was predicated on the idea that these character's can have some redeeming qualities and still remain dubious... (e.g. Dontos, Ygritte, The Hound. )
I haven't seen the ep yet, but the scene that's got everyone in a tizzy was pretty rapey in the book too, as I recall.
Which is not to say that objecting to rape-as-plot-device isn't valid, it's just not something the show invented out of the blue.
EDIT: Also -- Stannis is "morally ambiguous"? Since when? Stannis is a guy who looks at the letter of the law and be damned to the spirit. Morality doesn't even enter into it with him.
Last edited by Dorkman (2014-04-21 23:54:43)
Trey, "transferring sympathy to Cersei" is the best reasoning I've heard yet. I like it.
Dorkman, in the book, she consents pretty clearly, before Jaime is inside her, even though the scene starts rapey. On tv, it's staged very rapily and the scene ends on Jaime saying "I don't care". I think that's what most people have a problem with. Jaime is still a bad guy, but he prevented Brienne from being raped, so outright raping his sister really does seem out of character.
According to interviews with the director it was supposed to become consensual, but that just didn't come across at all in how it played out.
Here's the passage from the book, if anyone's interested:
Last edited by Herc (2014-04-22 01:20:30)
My problem with the scene is that it brings Jaime back to square one, after he spent an entire season developing and changing and growing as a person. Was he ever a "good guy?" Of course not. But having him do this doesn't make him any more "complex" as a character. If anything, it's the opposite. He's now back to the amoral monster we knew in the first season. What the fuck were they thinking?
Not to mention the fact that it's inexcusable to reduce Cersei to a tool for making Jaime more tortured and anti-heroic. That's what happened in that scene. The show turned her into an object whose sole purpose was to further Jaime's character arc, with no consideration to who she is or what she's going through. They couldn't "transfer sympathy to her" in any other way? Ugh.
Of course, that's exactly what rape is, so there's an argument to be made that it's intentional on the part of the writers. But it doesn't change the fact that it's out of character for Jaime and otherwise incredibly mishandled as a scene.
Btw, Eddie, I remember Jaime thinking about Joffrey and Tommen like all the time. Maybe I'm misremembering, but I'm pretty sure they're a big deal to him. He just can't be open about that in any way, for obvious reasons.
Last edited by Doctor Submarine (2014-04-22 03:08:26)
The real problem here is that the director of the episode and the actor who plays Jaime have both come out and said that the scene was intended to "become consensual" at the end. The fact that they think that's what they did is really disturbing.
And regardless of ALL of this, rape is not interesting. Rape is not complex. It's a bad storytelling choice.
Fire at will if you want, but I thought this scene was a bit more complex than sheer rape. Jaime definitely behaved as a rapist, but Cersei seemed - at least to me - that she was fighting her own desire. So yeah, it was rape. But not only. Maybe I'm saying this because of how the original scene in the book is, but the scene in a show was actually a good reminder to me of how fucked up Jaime, Cersei and their relationship are. Maybe changing the scene from the book was meant to make it even more obvious, but I'm not sure it was needed (especially with all the fuss it's created).
Last edited by Saniss (2014-04-22 12:43:13)
I don't think there's anything ambiguous about Cersei saying "No, no" over and over and Jaime responding, "I don't care, I don't care."
"Incest? Sure. But it's gotta be consensual."
- the internet
Interestingly enough, last night I hung out with a friend I hadn't seen in a while and we were talking about his tv project. He mentioned he wanted to push some boundaries, and so I asked if he was a GoT watcher - speaking of the risks involved in pushing boundaries and so on.
He said he wasn't aware of the Jaime/Cersei controversy because he ragequit GoT two weeks ago when Arya put Needle through that guy's neck. Arya was the only character he liked, but she was ruined for him when she became a cold-blooded murderer.
Which I found kinda surprising, since in the world of GoT that moment was about as close to a "happy ending" as the show ever delivers. But different folks have different buttons. Lorena Bobbitt probably wouldn't like the Jaime incident either, meanwhile John Wayne Bobbitt probably wouldn't be too fond of the Theon storyline.
All of which is fine, and if any particular thing turns people off the show, that's just the risk you run when you try to make anything edgier than Full House. (Actually I'm sure somebody somewhere quit watching Full House because of some episode that went too far.)
What I don't get is the complaint that this changes anything about Jaime or Cersei, other than showing their dynamic has changed. For me that scene was like watching two vipers fighting - the good outcome would have been if they killed each other in the process - but of course Westeros isn't ever going to be that lucky.
He said he wasn't aware of the Jaime/Cersei controversy because he ragequit GoT two weeks ago when Arya put Needle through that guy's neck. Arya was the only character he liked, but she was ruined for him when she became a cold-blooded murderer.
Not a book reader, I take it.
All of which is fine, and if any particular thing turns people off the show, that's just the risk you run when you try to make anything edgier than Full House. (Actually I'm sure somebody somewhere quit watching Full House because of some episode that went too far.)
You also have those turned off when things don't go far enough. All the calls for stories to be darker, more "edgy", the bitching at the current trend of PG-13 rated horror films. In 20 years when the final book in the series is released, I hope it's all happy and hopeful, just to annoy those who like the current rape and bloodshed
All of which is fine, and if any particular thing turns people off the show, that's just the risk you run when you try to make anything edgier than Full House.
Well, now I wanna see a crossover called Not-So-Full House Stark.
Again, I fail to see the controversy around this sentence:
A character who shoved a child from a window, murdered his own cousin with his bare hands, fathered three children with his twin sister, also committed rape.
I have no problem if all that stuff is too much for you. Everyone has a line. But the character has a subteranean level of morality (in both book and film) and to be outraged by one aspect of it, is insane.
Last edited by Eddie (2014-04-22 23:49:36)
Well, now I wanna see a crossover called Not-So-Full House Stark.
Herc wrote:Well, now I wanna see a crossover called Not-So-Full House Stark.
Oh, internet. Is there nothing you cannot do?
I... oh, internet, you scamp!
Cheers, that made my day!
Again, I fail to see the controversy around this sentence:
A character who shoved a child from a window, murdered his own cousin with his bare hands, fathered three children with his twin sister, also committed rape.
I have no problem if all that stuff is too much for you. Everyone has a line. But the character has a subteranean level of morality (in both book and film) and to be outraged by one aspect of it, is insane.
I agree (both with you and the points Tray makes). We who have also read the books also know that Jamie is soon to do "the right thing" as well as confessing to maybe his worst betrayal.
Jamie is a damaged character, he had a sense of honour and like we all fails to live up to his own standards.
But until I'm proven wrong I firmly believe Jamie will be there for the final battle against the white walkers, and maybe then he will find redemption.
On the subject of internet creativity, if anyone's not already familiar with this: http://arrestedwesteros.com/. Game of Thrones screengrabs with entirely appropriate Arrested Development quotes. You'd think this shit would get real old, real quick, but bobdamn if it doesn't just keep delivering.
Again, I fail to see the controversy around this sentence:
A character who shoved a child from a window, murdered his own cousin with his bare hands, fathered three children with his twin sister, also committed rape.
I have no problem if all that stuff is too much for you. Everyone has a line. But the character has a subteranean level of morality (in both book and film) and to be outraged by one aspect of it, is insane.
Yes, but we've been led to believe that Jaime has changed. Am I wrong about that? I don't think I am.
And more importantly, he pushes a kid out of a window and murders his own cousin out of love for his sister. Raping her, only a few weeks after saying specifically that he would rather die than be raped, makes zero. Fucking. Sense.
Far as I'm concerned, this scene is impossible to justify from a storytelling perspective.
Last edited by Doctor Submarine (2014-04-23 03:04:21)
Yes, but we've been led to believe that Jaime has changed. Am I wrong about that? I don't think I am.
Becoming aware of your own dickish behavior is not changing. And if it was, so fucking what? He has yet to do anything in book or film to ATONE. If someone pushes my kid out of a window and then comes at me with, "But I've CHANGED," it wouldn't be anywhere near the zip code of enough to prevent me from killing them.
And more importantly, he pushes a kid out of a window and murders his own cousin out of love for his sister. Raping her, only a few weeks after saying specifically that he would rather die than be raped, makes zero. Fucking. Sense.
Far as I'm concerned, this scene is impossible to justify from a storytelling perspective.
Here's why I am at least willing to give it a chance to play out. Jaime's change of heart isn't about the fact that he has been immoral, it is that he has broken vows, and promises. THAT'S what he has come around on, his commitment to his word. He feels ZERO remorse for loving his sister. Now, the rape scene is initiated by the fact that Cersei has spurned him since day one of his return. At a chance to be alone, he tries to comfort her. She initially embraces him, then recoils at the sight of his hand. Now, for someone who has demonstrated a keen sense of brutality, this is the final straw. The tease. To come so close to being allowed back in her arms and then have that yanked away is what triggers his actions. In many instances of date rape, or rape even amongst married couples, the act of forcing sex isn't just about gratification, but about control. Jaime has no control over losing his hand, he has no control of Cersei. He has just had TWO kings die in his arms, and no one will ever know the true story of either. And what is the line he says right before he forces himself on her?
"Why did the gods make me love a hateful woman."
He has no control of his desire for his sister, so dammit, he's going to assert his will. He is going to assert control over SOMETHING. It's an ugly, hateful, petty act. And it is COMPLETELY IN LINE with who he is as a character.
+4
All of that, PLUS...
there was also Tywin's reaction to Jamie's return home - "sure, you're alive but you'll never be any use now. Might as well ship you back home." And of course Jamie's own son the King dissed him as usual. Jamie endured all manner of torment to make it back to his family and they ALL greeted him with a hearty "meh, we did fine without you" when he finally got there.
He actually did seem a bit humbled for a while, but that wasn't getting him anywhere so he just switched back to doing whatever he damn well wants. Ugly? Sure. Surprising? Hardly.
Note also that Tywin added considerably to Cersei's grief-load by immediately taking Tommen under his wing and saying "Okay, so let's not be a fuckup like your brother, umkay?" That's Cersei's new reality - her son was murdered and nobody in Westeros gives a damn, other than the expected kneejerk reactions about family honor and vengeance and such. But Joffrey the person - nobody's sad to see him gone. Poor Cersei, she's the only one who genuinely loved that little shit.
So not only are all these characters getting pushed to their breaking points by recent events, the show's showing us what the Lannister family's real problem is. Tywin's so concerned about his family legacy that he's been doing serious lifelong damage to his actual family.
And we all know how that's gonna pay off sometime between now and the end of the season. And if they stay true to the books completely, it will be Tyrion's turn for the audience to say "oh, that's so terrible and now I don't like him!" Even though what Tyrion will do will make perfect sense as well.
None of that justifies awkwardly and unnecessarily forcing a rape scene into the stories of both Jaime and Cersei. There is absolutely no need for the scene to play out in such unambiguously nasty terms. Bottom line: Rape is not dramatically interesting. It's a cheap storytelling device that's almost invariably thrown in for shock value and nothing else, as seems to be the case here (this could spiral out into the coming episodes, but the director's comments seem to refute that.)
I can think of exactly one well-executed rape storyline. It was on The Sopranos, another HBO show, as it happens. In the episode in which Dr. Melfi is raped ("Employee of the Month," I think season 3), the show does three important things:
1) It doesn't shy away from the brutality and cruelty of the act. There's nothing sexual or enticing about it, and there's no half-assed attempt at ambiguity over whether or not it was consensual in an attempt to soften it.
2) It ties the act directly into Melfi's broader, series-wide arc, specifically in her internal strife over whether or not to tell Tony about it. She knows that he'll go kill this guy immediately if he finds out, but at the same time she doesn't want to cross a moral boundary and enter Tony's world, because she knows she won't be able to turn back from that. Which brings us to the most important point...
3) The plot is about HER. It's not about making the rapist seem darker and edgier and more "conflicted" or whatever, like this Jaime bullshit apparently is. It's about her reaction to it, and the position it puts her in, and whether or not she is going to make an ethical decision. I don't think we're giving enough thought to the fact that Game of Thrones just had Cersei, a main character, be raped for the apparent purpose of reminding us that her rapist is a bad guy. How is that not horrifying to everyone? Am I crazy? I can't possibly be the only person on this forum who finds this whole thing despicable.
Powered by PunBB, supported by Informer Technologies, Inc.
Currently installed 9 official extensions. Copyright © 2003–2009 PunBB.
