Yeah, I probably should have clarified, my outrage at the film stems more from my two guy friends insisting that I feel empowered by Black Widow and me being unable to immediately explain why that felt so wrong.

I don't begrudge anyone else liking Avengers, and the movie isn't horrific. It's like Looper; it hurts more because it got so very close to being the thing I want, not because it missed by a mile.

Also: thanks for the warm welcome and for taking my complaints seriously. That's very kind. 

YES. What Teague said. I feel a little sheepish that you were able to sum up what I was feeling that succinctly when I so could not. Good job.

And fair enough, Eddie. I can live with that.

Meh. I can't say the posters bother me, not because there's nothing wrong with them - there is. It's just not any worse than the stuff I see everywhere everyday. I would like for the way that women are posed on posters to change, but I care more about the way female characters are portrayed in movies. You fix that and I suspect the posters will naturally get fixed along the way. I don't stare at movie posters all day, but I do stare at movies.

I've been thinking about "strong characters, female" as Allison puts it and there really aren't any good action movies from this century told from the point of view of a woman. Are there? I guess there's a couple bad ones, like Catwoman, but I can't think of any good ones and I definitely don't own any.

Since Hollywood is so dedicated to perfecting this whole superhero-story-movie-thing I'd really like just ONE really good one starring a woman before this trend is over.

For the record, I'm fine with this, so long as the story earns it. Contrast the way they treat her with the way a normal, unenlightened male would and you're golden. Cat saved.

Granted, the wonderland aspect of The Avengers is one that I didn't buy into as a whole, so perhaps other women don't have the problems with it that I do.

So, I've been eager to join this conversation since the commentary came out, but as China blocked the DiF website, I was unable to before now. And, at risk of un-derailing the convo back towards sexism a bit, I'd like to share my experience with the movie.

I went in not expecting much. I haven't liked the lead-up movies and suspected that this would be the worst parts of all the previous movies combined. I was right. To me it was a lot of incoherent fighting about things that are not important and then some city ... New York? explodes because of aliens and then more fighting and then it ended. There was nothing enjoyable about this movie (except that Cap America and that guy with the bow were TOTAL dreamboats.)

What bothered me most about The Avengers, though, was how not-a-woman Black Widow was. As far as I could tell, she was a man in a woman's body. There was nothing about the way she acted or was treated that made her feel relatable at all to me (as a woman).

My two guy friends, who I saw the movie with, thought this was ridiculous and we had a big discussion/argument following the movie. They thought I HAD to feel empowered by ScarJo because she kicked butt and managed to look gorgeous doing it.

This infuriated me, though I couldn't articulate why exactly at the time. Now, having given it several months thought, I think I can say why.

She is not treated believably by the other men. For a woman on screen to be a real, believable woman to me she must face the same social struggles I would face if I were trying to do what she did. In the movie, Black Widow is automatically treated as an equal, with the same weight given to her opinions and ideas as the men. This does not happen in real life. Very, very few men listen to women with both their ears and their brains. And the ones that do, don't necessarily cross paths with women who can and are willing to explain what it is like to be a woman. Even if we do explain, men tend to tell us we're wrong for feeling the way we feel. Thus, silence prevails. The men that do naturally understand women tend to, like Dorkman, get pushed aside and ignored, even if they're right. And Dorkman has been right, btw. The posters are a problem, mostly because they're more a symptom of The Big Problem - sexism.

As a side note, is ScarJo actually sexy in this movie? I can't say I noticed one way or the other until the sexism thing came up on the commentary. I mean, I can see how she was trying to be attractive, but was she successful? Mostly, she just looked uncomfortable to me. Black leather, hot sun - yuck!

Interestingly, that Gwenyth Paltrow woman was totally believable. She was completely empowering to me. Her superpowers include: being in a position to influence and manipulate a powerful man, witty banter, and being a good judge of character. THIS IS ENOUGH! Her scenes with Ironman were the only ones in the movie that I enjoyed. Part of her credibility is that everyone, including her, knows her limitations as a woman. She can't run and fight and give orders like a man, but uses what tools she's got and to great effect. Also, that boyfriend of hers seems to respect her in the sense that he listens to her and believes what she says.

Just for fun I went through the list of movies DiF has covered and I've complied a list of women who I find empowering. I've only seen about half the DiF movies, so forgive me if I miss an obvious one. They are categorized here based on how they strike me.

So empowering, I want to punch the sky - Rose from Titanic, Mrs. Incredible, Elizabeth Swan from PotC

Merely Awesome - Princess Leia, Queen Amedala, Sigourney Weaver in Galaxy Quest, that Matrix lady, Knives from Scott Pilgrim, lady from Indiana Jones 3, Erica from The Social Network, Liv Tyler in Lotr, Fanning Child in Super 8, Zoe and Inara from Firefly

Relatable - Hermione, Lorraine from BttF, Press secretary in Independence Day, Jasmine from Aladdin, Mary-Jane in the Spidey 1&2, Ironman's girlfriend, Emily Blunt in Looper, Rachel Daws (more in BB than TDK), Anna Paquin in X-men

Notable mentions - wife from Apollo 13, Buttercup form Princess Bride, Jurassic Park woman and girl, all the women in Hook, wife from UP, Ms. Fox from Independence Day, mom from E.T.

And per the request for what makes dudes sexy, here are the shmexiest men in the DiF movies (in my opinion, that I've seen.)

OMG - Jack from Titanic, Wesley from PB, Han Solo (duh)

Worth mentioning - JGL in anything, the Goldblum in anything, those 2 pirates from PotC, Mal from Firefly, Spiderman

While I can't speak for all women on the subject, a dude in a movie is a lot more likely to come across as sexy (instead of merely handsome) to me if he does the following: really, really listens to a woman when she speaks, believes in the woman while other dudes don't, sympathizes with her social-standing/getting respect struggles, doesn't believe what other men say about the woman/makes up his own mind about her and protects innocent/less powerful people.

I'd be happy to carry on the feminism and women in film/art conversation, if there's interest. Though, is there a thread on the subject already? I gave a quick look and didn't see one.

Also, just by-the-by, I find Victoria's Secret incredibly ... what's the word ... demoralizing? Something like that. That company was started by a man and bras today are often designed by men. They're meant to help women live up to an ideal - not feel comfortable or empowered. The gold standard for respect of women in the lingerie industry is Bravissimo, not VS or Vogue.