Chiming in to note that this is a thread and discussion worthy of us as a community.
Carry on.

This is a pretty massive generalization, especially the part about there being "virtually no progress" in any of those areas. Actually, the so-called "Dark" Ages had advancement. Just look at the Carolingian Renaissance. That's why most historians agree that the term "Dark" Ages is inaccurate.

That's funny, because I'm a Jew, so I'm pretty confident that none of my morals would come from Christ even if I was religious.

JC's morals came from the jews, just saying.

I do agree that's the way things have been going lately. I think the era of Christendom in the 20th century greatly influenced our cultural values, whether or not we all believe in God, and it brought our culture's values to a certain point. Now that era is over, and human reason is taking over from there. Some Christian values will still align with popular culture (for the foreseeable future, at least), but some will get thrown by the wayside.

I'm not positive that what you appear to define as Christian morality is valid for everyone. Charitable work, care for the homeless and under privileged, and much of the private healthcare is frequently performed by organisations with a "Christian" orientation.

Anglicans have female bishops, openly gay bishops, and a strong focus on community, however still define themselves as a branch of Catholicism (reformed).

Can you provide your definition of "Christian morality"?

Last edited by Dave (2014-01-03 19:17:51)

Yeah, let me clarify this.  When I talk about the importance of doubt, it does not mean we IGNORE evidence.  To the contrary, I believe we have to start from a premise of the limits of human understanding, then we go by the evidence in front of us, and then after that we factor in our own anecdotes.  So while I take comfort in my own ignorance, that doesn't mean I diminish data and observable phenomena.  I have experienced some things in my life that I don't have an immediate answer for.  But that doesn't mean I discount science and jump straight to the supernatural. 

When I was 8 years old, we put my great grandmother's ashes to sea.  My Grandmother was in a wheelchair.  While we were pushing her around Newport Beach, I was hit very hard by a series of images: the loose front tire on my grandmother's wheel chair, a crack in the ground, and my grandmother screaming in pain.  Three hours later, her loose tire caught in a crack in the ramp leading to the ferry, and my grandmother was launched out of her wheelchair down the rest of the ramp.  Is there a possibility I'm psychic or experience bouts of precognition?  I suppose you could say that.  Does this suggest I'm psychic?  To me, not at all.  Overactive imagination, combined with logic (it was a loose wheel after all) and probability can produce the same result.  I've seen lights in the sky move at unnatural speeds.  Aliens?  I mean....maybe?  But highly, highly unlikely.  So while I take comfort in the limits of comprehension of the gray shit betwixt my ears, that doesn't mean I can play D&D with the rest of my life.

Last edited by Eddie (2014-01-03 20:09:24)

Also, on a different point, as someone married to a Catholic and with a deep respect for people's faiths....there is no way historically you can look to the rise of Christianity and not see the influence of other monotheistic religions in terms of creation myths, moral code, afterlife structure, etc. 

This is going to sound harsher than it is meant to be, but Christianity is akin to a Judaism/Zoroastrinism mashup fan-fic.  Jesus historically existed, and the Pentateuch was in place, but many of the gaps of the old testament were filled in with elements of pre existing concepts.

So in answer to the original question, maybe, but it depends who you ask.

Even with the Byzantium civilization, I'd question what intellectual progress it achieved. Any discoveries? Any exploration? Any technological inventions? Any improvements in human rights? Medicine? Any improvement in understanding the nature of man and the cosmos?

Reconciling Plato & Aristotle to the Bible doesn't count. Transcribing old documents from papyrus to parchment to paper doesn't count. Making shitloads of religious icons and holy relics doesn't count. Byzantium may not be quite as Dark as the west, but it's still fairly Dark compared to what came before AD450 and after AD1450.

Sure that's possible. It's the most likely explanation, actually--the Fertile Crescent flooded, and the survivors needed a way to process and understand it. What that doesn't prove is that the Biblical account is true by any means, because it's not. It's just one of many derivative legends that comes from a flawed attempt to understand a disaster. And considering it's the oldest piece of literature we have, it's far more likely that Gilgamesh was being copied by the writer of the Flood account (who wasn't Moses, by the by) than that writer having the one true account.

Last edited by Abbie (2014-01-03 21:24:39)