Trey had a friggin' checklist of things he liked, complete with TIMECODES. Epic. That being said, I happen to like Revolutions, but I also think Scott's interpretation rant on how they should've been was a hell of a lot better.

details, details

I believe they say in the film that the One's abilites extend to the machine world. That to me implies that it IS a type of wi-fi that is part of the machines' programing of him. Why? I have no idea because it was a horribly written movie.
Another possibility is that by jumping into Smith in the first movie he assimilated part of his programming. Smith says something about part of Neo being passed to him. It is conceivable that it went both ways.

Alright Dorkman, I gotta get this out.

Why is it that whenever people are discussing this topic, they always mange to bring up the fact that the wi-fi things would need some kind of hardware, and then the whole hardware vs. software things pops up and whatever. Yet they always manage to conveniently forget that every single human released from the Matrix, was grown, FROM BIRTH, with technology implanted into them. Literally running in their veins. I mean there has to be a reason why the plugs can't simply be removed right?

So the way I always saw it (And keep in mind, I never personally had a problem with this plot point, due to the line of reasoning I'm explaining), was that because the machine technology is so literally part of what makes the humans up, (because if the machines can breed humans, we can probably pretty safely assume that they might include some additional hardware to make a connection to the matrix a little easier (Last I checked just stabbing a frickin syringe into the back of your head didn't do much for your health. Let alone get you onto the internet.)

So then, we could pretty safely assume, that this technology, that is already present inside Neos physical body, could be activated by the "one's software" (Or one could say it's simply Neo discovering his own abilities outside the Matrix, and finally accessing the power of his own mind to use the physical tools the machines gave him while he was still connected to the matrix) and therefore be used to connect, even in a somewhat rudimentary way to the Matrix, or even to a lesser extent simply to those Sentinels (since the were in such close range, Neo could have just hacked his way into their Wi-Fi connection and fed them some phony commands).

Call it what you will, but that's how I always saw it going down.

OK, Dorkman, so here's the deal that I don't get about with you and the Matrix films:

It seems to me there are two bits of magic,

1. Everyone in the world is plugged into machines
2. Our main character can do crazy things that no one else can do

It's never stated that the One's powers only exist in the Matrix, and in fact, his powers are never explained at all. For all we know, he never needed to be plugged into the Matrix to do the things he did in the first film.

Think of it this way: Neo controls the machines with his mind. Plugging into the Matrix just lets him see the Matrix, and then he manipulates it just like he can manipulate any of the networked machine computers. Plugging into the Matrix is, for him, like looking at an LCD monitor is for us, but he uses a bluetooth keyboard.

So for me, buying that he's able to blow up Sentinals, that's no problem, that's what he's been doing for two movies.

Where the problem is for me is when it's revealed somewhere in film 1 that Neo is special. Until that point, the magic bean that we have to swallow is that the entire world is a lie.

Why do you accept that the Wachowskis ask us to swallow another bean, and then complain when that bean's promise is fully realized?

Last edited by Gregory Harbin (2010-03-17 06:51:18)

First of all, yes, it is stated specifically that the One's abilities revolve around his ability to reshape the Matrix however he pleased. Morpheus knows of at least one other One before Neo -- the one that freed him -- and makes no indication that he thinks Neo can do anything outside of the Matrix.

Secondly, it is not two magic beans. The magic beans of the story are: what we consider "reality" is a computer program. The rest of it -- humans interfacing through needles in their brains, the ability of certain special people to "hack" the program -- are expressions and fulfillments of that concept.

The special abilities in the Matrix are acceptable because it is not reality, it is a simulation and the freeminds can override it in certain ways -- and the One, we're told, can override it entirely.

It's when suddenly the One has powers outside of the computer program, in reality, that the second set of magic beans appears, and are never explained.

Neo is a hacker, he has a mind for code, and I can accept him using his mind for code to override the Matrix code within the Matrix. The real world does not have a code to override and does not exist within Neo's mind and therefore should not be within his realm of influence.

We can come up with theories all day long -- "reality" is really another Matrix, Neo has an airport card in his head -- but the fact is, this just appears out of nowhere at the end of the second film, entirely without precedent, and is never explained by the movies themselves. Whereas the ability to do fantastical things within the Matrix is well-established and well-explained in the very first movie. In point of fact, Neo learning to use this to his advantage is the plot of the first movie.

Haha when I read this my mind was like "he is saying that because Dorkman hit all the points first"

why I find this funny I have no idea.....

Based on what we see and what they explain to us in the next two movies, The One can do essentially anything at all. We have a demonstration of how much he can do without any kind of discussion or demonstration of his limitations.

In which case, where's the drama and tension? What's interesting about this character and why should I get invested in whether or not he succeeds?

Even Superman has kryptonite.

And my answer to that is:

No.

Because that's not how it works. They have established a set of rules and must either work within them or explain why they no longer apply and/or never did and we just didn't have all the information.

How can you say this "doesn't require retconning" when it requires that I "forget the explanation from the first film"? That is the definition of retconning.

In a world where the rules set out in the films were different and accommodated Neo's sudden manifestation of abilities outside the Matrix, then I obviously would not be complaining that it violated the rules. As that is not the world in which we exist, it makes no sense to bring it up other than to say there's a good chance I would have been more satisfied with it. We are talking about the films that exist. If we want to talk about other ways they could have done it, obviously I have no problem with that, but it's ridiculous to ask me to imagine a fantasy version of the movies I don't have a problem with, and pretend that somehow justifies the actual versions.

They set the rules and they broke them with neither justification nor explanation. You can excuse them if you like, you can come up with all kinds of reasons that you are making up and have no basis in the story as presented, but you need to recognize that you are excusing poor storytelling, not somehow making it work.

I skipped the DIF Matrix sequel episodes because I simply don't care about them, and was happy to not have to sit through them again.

But as far as THIS discussion, I will say that the series jumped the shark for me at the very point being talked about - when Neo's powers inexplicably spilled over into the real world, I stopped caring what happened next. 

Not only because they took the easy way out, but because it instantly ruined MY favorite concept from the original movie - Neo had become Superman in the Matrix, but in the real world he was as weak as a toddler.

Which was the set up for the best scene in the original movie: when Neo and co. are in the Matrix and Cypher is on the ship with the power to kill them all with the flick of a switch - and Neo is utterly powerless to stop him.   

THAT was a great dramatic setup and they could have kept exploring that during the next two movies, but instead they just threw it away for some wonky Jesus allegory that undermined everything interesting that the first movie had established.

Nice fight scenes, tho, if you like that sorta thing.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. People decided for themselves what the Matrix movies were about, and then complained when the Wachowskis told them that it wasn't about that.

But the fact of the matter remains that the Wachowskis never contradicted their film, only your assumptions about what that film meant.

And you're absolutely right, that was an awesome scene in the first movie, but it would have been horrible if that was the draw of the next FOUR HOURS. You can't make a trilogy with that as your only drama.

Last edited by Gregory Harbin (2010-03-18 01:01:51)

Good post, Dorkman. I think I'm on board with you, at least for the most part. I'll need to watch the films and see if what you say holds out.

I think our main points of disagreement are over what the first magic bean is in the first place. You seem to be willing to excuse anything at all that happens in the Matrix.

The first magic bean is that the world we live in is a video game. OK, swallowed.

But then Morpheus tells Neo that the rules can be bent, and even broken. In what video game can you bend and break the rules just because you know it's a game? The only way I know to bend the rules in a video game is to hack. Hacking, then, is the second bean, is it not? Or if it's not the second bean, if it's connected to the first bean, then why can Neo only hack the Matrix? Why can't he hack the machines themselves?

As you say, if something doesn't violate the established rules, than it's OK. Hasn't hacking already been established? And wasn't the overarching question of the first film WHY Neo was so much better at hacking than the rest of them? Why can't this be explained by Neo having some sort of remote hacking ability?

You seem to be begging for an as-you-know scene to explain it. My argument, I guess, is a prima facie one. It happened, there's only one explanation, so there you go.