Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

BBQ wrote:

Welp...might as well copy/paste my FB comment on the Xmas special:

I'd label my reaction more than disappointing -- rather up there around "tiresome". Even ignoring the in-episode things that made me go "wait, what? That's dumb." it was a kitchen-sink style story to try and tie up the vast amount of convoluted plot turns of the last several years. To me it felt more like they were desperately trying explain away all the nonsense before Capaldi arrived rather than the culmination of some sort of master story arc for Smith.

On that note, I second the assessment that Smith's run has been a hot mess of macguffin after macguffin. I like Matt Smith, but I loathe the silly/immature/selfish/bumbling/whiny/fool of a Doctor he was forced to play. Smith's run had a handful of amazing episodes, and they were almost always when the show decided to treat the Doctor like an actual character, rather than a walking gag-machine.

I'm intrigued by Capaldi and like the idea of him as the Doctor. The thing is, it's not on him at all, I feel. It's on whether the writers/producers of Who decide to take the show back to it's roots as a sci-fi adventure show (well, technically it's roots are an educational kids show, but you know what I mean) instead of the contrived spaceman fairytale they attempted -- and failed, in my opinion -- to pull off with Smith's run.

I agree with pretty much everything you said.

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727

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

All I want, with regard to Doctor Who, is the end of season long story arcs. Do two or three episode stories, sure, the equivalent of a 4 or 6 part classic story, but enough with having it all mean something. And can we have a non-Human companion again? Please?

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Invid wrote:

All I want, with regard to Doctor Who, is the end of season long story arcs. Do two or three episode stories, sure, the equivalent of a 4 or 6 part classic story, but enough with having it all mean something. And can we have a non-Human companion again? Please?

Or how about 2 male companions? Maybe even make one of them sexually ambiguous. Something new!

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Aural Stimulation wrote:
Invid wrote:

All I want, with regard to Doctor Who, is the end of season long story arcs. Do two or three episode stories, sure, the equivalent of a 4 or 6 part classic story, but enough with having it all mean something. And can we have a non-Human companion again? Please?

Or how about 2 male companions? Maybe even make one of them sexually ambiguous. Something new!

Yeah, but then you have a show with no female regulars (assuming they've shut the book on River.) Although Rory was so good that it's hard to argue with.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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730

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

The show has never done only male companions, and I can't see them doing it. I'd like to go back to having a teen in the Tardis, maybe a mother/son or Father/daughter combo. Or, in my dream story, have the Doctor's great-grandkids show up and travel with him smile

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

I have maintained and still do, that having another Time Lord as a companion, at least for a while, would be an interesting twist, especially given the fact that Gallifrey is still out there. It creates a bit of a different relationship between the Doctor and his home and the guilt he had felt over the Time War.

Regardless, I am interested in the way Capaldi handles being the Doctor and how jaded he can be. The Doctor can always be dark and each incarnation has had his dark moments; some more than others. I think a more jaded Doctor who tries to reconcile all the strife going on in the galaxy and his own personal pain would be interesting, but he can't stay jaded forever.

God loves you!

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732

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Invid wrote:

All I want, with regard to Doctor Who, is the end of season long story arcs. Do two or three episode stories, sure, the equivalent of a 4 or 6 part classic story, but enough with having it all mean something.

I still think a balance of the procedural "adventure of the week" and a long term "character story arc" is something that's both difficult to pull off and immensely rewarding for the viewer, dramatically speaking.

Plus, Doctor Who is tailor made for that sort of thing, with the regeneration magic bean creating an artificial end point to "The Doctor" that is independent to the show's continuation.

They whiffed badly on Smith's run...but I hope they don't give up entirely on the idea of a long-term path/journey that the Doctor will take, ending in his regeneration.

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

So if Matt Smith played...

SPOILER Show
the last Doctor
How come in season when
SPOILER Show
the astronaut shot him he had regeneration energy?

Extended Edition - 146 - The Rise Of Skywalker
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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Faldor wrote:

So if Matt Smith played...

SPOILER Show
the last Doctor
How come in season when
SPOILER Show
the astronaut shot him he had regeneration energy?

SEASON SIX ENDING AHOY:

SPOILER Show
He didn't. The Teselecta faked it so River would assume he was regenerating.

"Most people don't even know what sysadmins do, but trust me, if they all took a lunch break at the same time they wouldn't make it to the deli before you ran out of bullets protecting your canned goods from roving bands of mutants."

-- http://stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Holden wrote:

"Occasionally Fixes Things"

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736

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Holden wrote:
Faldor wrote:

So if Matt Smith played...

SPOILER Show
the last Doctor
How come in season when
SPOILER Show
the astronaut shot him he had regeneration energy?

SEASON SIX ENDING AHOY:

SPOILER Show
He didn't. The Teselecta faked it so River would assume he was regenerating.

REAL SEASON SIX ENDING AHOY:

  Show
After painting themselves into a corner, the writers made up some bullshit in order to wipe away an illogical gordian knot of a plot line.

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

BBQ wrote:
Holden wrote:
Faldor wrote:

So if Matt Smith played...

SPOILER Show
the last Doctor
How come in season when
SPOILER Show
the astronaut shot him he had regeneration energy?

SEASON SIX ENDING AHOY:

SPOILER Show
He didn't. The Teselecta faked it so River would assume he was regenerating.

REAL SEASON SIX ENDING AHOY:

  Show
After painting themselves into a corner, the writers made up some bullshit in order to wipe away an illogical gordian knot of a plot line.

If you want a show with tight plotting and clever construction, where every seemingly insignificant detail ties into the larger plot and is a setup for something that happens later on...you're better off watching any given episode of Arrested Development. That show does in 22 minutes what Doctor Who couldn't handle in a whole season. DW is goofy sci-fi fun, but its boundless creativity has never really extended to concluding larger arcs.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Doctor Submarine wrote:
BBQ wrote:
Holden wrote:

SEASON SIX ENDING AHOY:

SPOILER Show
He didn't. The Teselecta faked it so River would assume he was regenerating.

REAL SEASON SIX ENDING AHOY:

  Show
After painting themselves into a corner, the writers made up some bullshit in order to wipe away an illogical gordian knot of a plot line.

If you want a show with tight plotting and clever construction, where every seemingly insignificant detail ties into the larger plot and is a setup for something that happens later on...you're better off watching any given episode of Arrested Development. That show does in 22 minutes what Doctor Who couldn't handle in a whole season. DW is goofy sci-fi fun, but its boundless creativity has never really extended to concluding larger arcs.

I was going to say, DW is not exactly know for maintaining continuity when the story demanded it. They truly do follow Nicholas Meyer when he discussed continuity in Star Trek II: Wrath of Khan. The audience does not care about continuity if they are told a good story (I am probably misquoting here, but I could not find the original so take this for what it is worth smile ).

Probably the most self-contained was Christopher Eccelston (and perhaps Paul McGan), with the beginning being the Doctor just escaping from the Time War and in the end, facing down the very opponents he thought were gone. Instead, he keeps facing down the Daleks again and again (again, for production reasons, and nothing due to the story).

Regardless, it is nice to see some continuity (Bad Wolf, for example) but there are truly too many thread lines from both Classic Who and New Who to create a viable, self-contained, multi-layered arc.

God loves you!

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739

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Doctor Submarine wrote:

If you want a show with tight plotting and clever construction, where every seemingly insignificant detail ties into the larger plot and is a setup for something that happens later on...you're better off watching any given episode of Arrested Development. That show does in 22 minutes what Doctor Who couldn't handle in a whole season. DW is goofy sci-fi fun, but its boundless creativity has never really extended to concluding larger arcs.

I would think that tight plotting and clever construction would be something we'd want from ALL shows.

Even pulling the bar down some, I think wanting plots that aren't totally non-nonsensical and cheap, over the top stakes-raising isn't asking too much.

I know it's possible. I even know it's possible in the modern run of Doctor Who. I know this, because they at least maintained some semblance of discipline & restraint before Smith's series.

fireproof78 wrote:

The audience does not care about continuity if they are told a good story (I am probably misquoting here, but I could not find the original so take this for what it is worth.

My issues aren't rooted in continuity problems as it relates to the old Who, or even the other Modern Who, or even the other Smith Who (though let's not pretend that an utter disregard for show continuity isn't exactly a good thing). I'm comfortable with some continuity breaking in a show about time travel that's had 800 episodes, spanning over 50 years. Yeah, that fine.

My issues are with story. I'd argue that the Xmas episode and much of the over-arching plot(s) during Smith's run is simply a bad stories, with cheap storytelling, presented with extra bluster, a breakneck pace, and lots of self congratulation about how cool it was...all in hopes that the audience would never realize how flimsy everything about it actually was.

Maybe I'm being overly harsh? Maybe.

I'm just a little tired of seeing an amazing concept show, that I genuinely enjoy, jump the tracks and dive off into a ravine while everyone on board sits around telling me what a clever shortcut the conductor just found.

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740

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

BBQ wrote:

I would think that tight plotting and clever construction would be something we'd want from ALL shows.

Not really. It depends on the show. It's definitely possible for something to be too clever, or at least think it's being clever when it's not. Or, to put it another way, a show without tight plotting and clever construction can still be enjoyable if it's not done perfectly, where as one trying to be both those things has a better chance of failing.


BBQ wrote:

Even pulling the bar down some, I think wanting plots that aren't totally non-nonsensical and cheap, over the top stakes-raising isn't asking too much.

Naturally. Mind you, I've never watched Doctor Who for the plot, so my solution would be to get rid of much of the stakes-raising altogether, at least that which extends beyond the current episode smile

fireproof78 wrote:

The audience does not care about continuity if they are told a good story (I am probably misquoting here, but I could not find the original so take this for what it is worth.

In the introduction to the first of the 'New Adventures' Doctor Who novels, which started after the show was canceled, former script supervisor Terence Dicks wrote that when it came to Who, if continuity got in the way of a good story, you ignored continuity.

BBQ wrote:

I'm just a little tired of seeing an amazing concept show, that I genuinely enjoy, jump the tracks and dive off into a ravine while everyone on board sits around telling me what a clever shortcut the conductor just found.

Hey, I've felt that since New Who started smile

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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741

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

fireproof78 wrote:

Regardless, it is nice to see some continuity (Bad Wolf, for example) but there are truly too many thread lines from both Classic Who and New Who to create a viable, self-contained, multi-layered arc.

I'd argue that Matt Smith's run, as far as the Ponds are concerned, is very self-contained. I was shown the first two Eccleston episodes and thought it was weird and ridiculous, saw only tidbits of Tennant, but a friend of mine, knowing this and knowing me, made a wise move and sat me down to watch "Blink", and then started me on Smith's first episode.
I still don't really care for the older seasons, but Smith's run is so good and it makes perfect sense to me. Anything you need to know, Daleks, Time Lords, etc., is explained.

From the Doctor falling into Amy's life until the time she blinks out of his, that's a full, complete story. For me, that's Doctor Who.




If you're talking about a solid arc that exists within that series and also ties into everything that's come before, well. Good luck. I don't think anyone's ever pulled that off with anything.

Last edited by Vapes (2014-01-06 19:07:19)

"Defending bad movies is VaporTrail's religion."
-DorkmanScott

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

SEE WHAT I'M SAYIN' WITH MY "BLINK THEN SERIES 5" JIVE?

I know people. I know humans. And for the record, I'm pretty sure I'm not the guy who told Vapes to watch them like that. That's just the right way to go. Objective truths!

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Well, "Blink" is one of the best episodes, in my opinion, so I can't fault that. Also, gives the viewer a wonderful fear of statutes for days afterwards.

I think I see your point Vapes, and Smith might also be the exception (there are still hints of the Bad Wolf arc throughout Eccelston's run) but I am saying for the overall run of Who continuity has not been the priority. The only consistent themes are Regeneration, Daleks, and now The Time War.

I might have to try viewing it Teague's way now, though

God loves you!

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

We have a costume for Capaldi! Rather swanky, I must say.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1176385_810531222294240_1619617419_n.png

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

As a friend of mine pointed out, "The pose is a bit much, but I like the outfit."  smile

I know this is just a promo shot, but it does make me curious what sort of adventures this Doctor has in store. What situation could inspire a person to stand in that position with that look on his face?

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Isn't this right before he tells a young Jedi he will be destroyed?

God loves you!

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

He could replace Woody Harrelson in Now You See Me with that pose.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

I was thinking it was nice tasteful callback to Jon Pertwee with the red lining, and then someone on the comments on tor.com found this old publicity photo:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7346/12192326903_9a5c348362.jpg

If my math is right, Capaldi would have been about 11-12 when Jon Pertwee took over.  Coincidence?  I've always really liked his Doctor, so am happy to think it's deliberate

For the next hour, everything in this post is strictly based on the available facts.

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749

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Pertwee was an action Doctor, always doing hand to hand combat with aliens. Could be fun to return to that smile

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Get in early to avoid disappointment!  Amazon.co.uk already has The Complete Season 8 blu ray set available for pre-order here.

Warning: the reviews contain extensive spoilers for Peter Capaldi's sole season as The Doctor.  (He regenerates into Steven Moffat at the end...whoops, should've spoiler-tagged that.)

For the next hour, everything in this post is strictly based on the available facts.

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