676

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Just got back from the 3D theatrical showing.

It was fun. These multi doctor shows have never been great, plot wise, and I've never been terribly fond of the idea of the Time War. Great fan service, though, even with the throwaway lines. I think I was the only one to laugh at the one about the UNIT files being dated either from the 70's or 80's (one of the big continuity questions is when the 3rd Doctor's adventures take place: they were written as if they take place in the "near future", and Sarah Jane says she's from the 1980 in a 1974 episode. However, later episodes assume they take place when they aired, in the early 70's).

The two small bits before the show were also good: a Sontaran giving cinema manners, and the two doctors telling how to use 3D glasses.

All and all, not as good as The Two Doctors, but one of the better new Who's.

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

I'm a little bit confused about the continuity here.

  Show
So, The End of Time pretty clearly established that Gallifrey was time-locked, right? So why does the Doctor think that he destroyed the planet and killed all of them when he knows that they're still out there? Can someone do a concise explanation of what exactly happened with the Time War, given what we learned in this new special?

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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678

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Doctor Submarine wrote:

I'm a little bit confused about the continuity here.

  Show
So, The End of Time pretty clearly established that Gallifrey was time-locked, right? So why does the Doctor think that he destroyed the planet and killed all of them when he knows that they're still out there? Can someone do a concise explanation of what exactly happened with the Time War, given what we learned in this new special?

  Show
It's a conceit of these multi Doctor stories that you can never really remember what happened, or even that it did happen. Otherwise, the future you would know everything and just solve the problem instantly. So, the Doctor remembers he was going to push the button, then... well, after he regenerated, into the "9th" Doctor, he saw the Time Lords and Daleks were all gone, and figured he must have done it.

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Doctor Submarine wrote:

I'm a little bit confused about the continuity here.

  Show
So, The End of Time pretty clearly established that Gallifrey was time-locked, right? So why does the Doctor think that he destroyed the planet and killed all of them when he knows that they're still out there? Can someone do a concise explanation of what exactly happened with the Time War, given what we learned in this new special?

I'll try my best, aha. Chronology can be tricky with time travel, but here's my understanding.

  Show
- The War Doctor takes The Moment, which we see in TDOTD.
- This is referred to in TEOT, so the events that happen in that story could either go alongside TDOTD or in between The War Doctor taking The Moment and the rest of the episode.
- All 13 Doctor's come and seal Gallifrey away, causing the planet to disappear and the Daleks getting caught in their own crossfire.
- Due to the timelines being out of sync, all of them but 11 forget what happened. This coupled with post-regeneration trauma makes 9 believe he destroyed Gallifrey. From his perspective, he went to use The Moment and then found himself with a new body, Gallifrey gone and Dalek wreckage everywhere.

EDIT: Regarding the time lock, the events of the Time War themselves are still locked, it was The Moment that allowed the Doctors to pass through it. After they seal Gallifrey, it should no longer be bound by the time lock and is now out there waiting to be found.

Hope that helped!

Last edited by Owen_Ward (2013-11-26 03:48:53)

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Thank you both. That clarifies things a lot.

That said, I loved the special. I thought that the focus on the Zygons was unnecessary, but I liked that it gave the Doctors an opportunity to work together in the way that only multiple Doctors can. An episode focusing on the Time War entirely might have been a bit too somber for an episode that was supposed to be celebratory.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Invid wrote:
Doctor Submarine wrote:

I'm a little bit confused about the continuity here.

  Show
So, The End of Time pretty clearly established that Gallifrey was time-locked, right? So why does the Doctor think that he destroyed the planet and killed all of them when he knows that they're still out there? Can someone do a concise explanation of what exactly happened with the Time War, given what we learned in this new special?

  Show
It's a conceit of these multi Doctor stories that you can never really remember what happened, or even that it did happen. Otherwise, the future you would know everything and just solve the problem instantly. So, the Doctor remembers he was going to push the button, then... well, after he regenerated, into the "9th" Doctor, he saw the Time Lords and Daleks were all gone, and figured he must have done it.

Here's my interpretation (for what it's worth)

  Show
I thought that Raleston (Timothy Dalton), in "End of Time" brought Gallifrey back right before the Doctor's "burn them all" end game. So, when 10 sent the Time Lords back to the Time War, it was to their doom to be burned. So, the idea that Gallifrey is still out there might be a last ditch effort on the part of the Time Lords to avoid their doom. Some how they might have broken out of the time lock (again) but removed themselves out of normal space time.

The Doctor wouldn't know since he expects Gallifrey to be gone.

Anyway, my thoughts.

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682

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Doctor Submarine wrote:

I'm a little bit confused about the continuity here.

Also,...

  Show
How can all three have the same Screwdriver? When the 10th's was destroyed when the TARDIS crashed (The TARDIS then gave 11th a new one), and then 10th's was given to River to use in The Library.  hmm

"Life is about movies; anything else is a bonus!"- Me   cool

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Snail wrote:
Doctor Submarine wrote:

I'm a little bit confused about the continuity here.

Also,...

  Show
How can all three have the same Screwdriver? When the 10th's was destroyed when the TARDIS crashed (The TARDIS then gave 11th a new one), and then 10th's was given to River to use in The Library.  hmm

Same software, different case. The idea presented is that the TARDIS makes new designs, but that the software itself is the safe throughout.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Doctor Submarine wrote:
Snail wrote:
Doctor Submarine wrote:

I'm a little bit confused about the continuity here.

Also,...

  Show
How can all three have the same Screwdriver? When the 10th's was destroyed when the TARDIS crashed (The TARDIS then gave 11th a new one), and then 10th's was given to River to use in The Library.  hmm

Same software, different case. The idea presented is that the TARDIS makes new designs, but that the software itself is the safe throughout.

  Show
Think of it as the TARDIS making cloud backups all the time. So if one is damaged, all the data is transferred to the new one.

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685

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Plus... this is Doctor Who. As former script editor Terrance Dicks put it, if continuity interferes with a good story, you ignore continuity!

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Oh by the way, BBC just announced the title of the Xmas special. It's in line with the last two episodes.

  Show
The Time of the Doctor

I was really holding out for "Twelfth Night." Alas. I'm sure we'll get plenty of that come springtime.

Also, according to Wikipedia, this will be the 800th individual episode of the show (breaking up the serials into their separate installments.) So that's pretty sweet.

Last edited by Doctor Submarine (2013-11-26 04:57:36)

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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687

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

fireproof78 wrote:
Invid wrote:
Doctor Submarine wrote:

I'm a little bit confused about the continuity here.

  Show
So, The End of Time pretty clearly established that Gallifrey was time-locked, right? So why does the Doctor think that he destroyed the planet and killed all of them when he knows that they're still out there? Can someone do a concise explanation of what exactly happened with the Time War, given what we learned in this new special?

  Show
It's a conceit of these multi Doctor stories that you can never really remember what happened, or even that it did happen. Otherwise, the future you would know everything and just solve the problem instantly. So, the Doctor remembers he was going to push the button, then... well, after he regenerated, into the "9th" Doctor, he saw the Time Lords and Daleks were all gone, and figured he must have done it.

Here's my interpretation (for what it's worth)

  Show
I thought that Raleston (Timothy Dalton), in "End of Time" brought Gallifrey back right before the Doctor's "burn them all" end game. So, when 10 sent the Time Lords back to the Time War, it was to their doom to be burned. So, the idea that Gallifrey is still out there might be a last ditch effort on the part of the Time Lords to avoid their doom. Some how they might have broken out of the time lock (again) but removed themselves out of normal space time.

The Doctor wouldn't know since he expects Gallifrey to be gone.

Anyway, my thoughts.

There are lines in TDOTD to the effect that

  Show
...the High Council (i.e., Rassilon and his cronies) have a plan to save Gallifrey -- presumably the events of TEOT -- but it has already failed.

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Invid wrote:

Plus... this is Doctor Who. As former script editor Terrance Dicks put it, if continuity interferes with a good story, you ignore continuity!

This is what I love with this show. Whenever you start to think "Wait, how can this even work?", they get away with "Oh it's too complicated, you know, wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey". They just don't care, and we don't either. smile

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

There's a few rumours revolcing Matt Smith's pending exit now, that I find a bit intriguing.

It enlists the Doctor's lives in this order
1. Bill Hartnell
2. Pat Throughton
3. Jon Pertwee
4. Tom Baker
5. Peter Davison
6. Colin Baker
7. Sylvester McCoy
8. Paul McGann
9. John Hurt
10. Chris Eccleston
11. David Tennant
12. David Tennant
13. Matt Smith


So why is this intriguing, and why is Tennant listed twice?

Well, think about it. They've gone ahead and made Hurt's War Doctor count. Sure, he apparently isn't "The Doctor", but the "War Doctor", but this incarnation should still count as one life. Or regeneration. But then there's Tennant x2. This isn't the Meta-crisis Doctor, but rather the regeneration from "The Stolen Earth" that was induced by a Dalek. Tennant regenerated, but used his own DNA to make it seem like a healing effect instead.

Thus making Smith the 13th and final Doctor, unless he's somehow given some extra lives.

Now, if Tennant and Hurt don't count, then neither should Pertwee, as his Doctor is enforced onto Throughton by the time lords.

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Tomahawk wrote:

Thus making Smith the 13th and final Doctor, unless he's somehow given some extra lives.

SPOILER Show
River gave all of her remaining regenerations to the Doc in "Let's Kill Hitler", thus bypassing the 13 thing. That's the most prevalent and logical explanation everyone's been passing around.

EDIT:

Last edited by BigDamnArtist (2013-11-26 16:59:35)

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

No. She used her own regeneration energy to heal Smith, she didn't give him spare ones.

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Tomahawk wrote:

No. She used her own regeneration energy to heal Smith, she didn't give him spare ones.

Depends on who you ask.

Like I said, "the most prevalent" explanation. We won't know for sure til Christmas.

My guess is they'll pull some wibbly-wobbliness with such a massive influx of regeneration energy being flooded into his body plus something something Tardis energy caused a reset of the regeneration gland.

Because I mean really, if a Time Lord can be created by 2 humans getting it on in a Tardis, nothing's off limits

Last edited by BigDamnArtist (2013-11-26 17:32:22)

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

I'd continue the discussion, but Extended Edition goes live in 2 hours, and I don't want to spoil ALL the fun tongue

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694

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

  Show
In canon, the Master already used up all his regenerations, then got more, with his most recent one being the Yana to Saxon change. So, of course they'll find more for the Doctor.

I also favour the LKH River Song regeneration transfusion theory as at least playing a part in this, because that would be dramatically more satisfying than an entirely new piece of wobbly wibble.

Plus, it's just like Moffat to call back to something we've seen before, that we thought we understood fully at the time, and give it a new meaning.

However, they could just as easily have Clara go looking for help to keep the Doctor alive...

  Show
...and have her somehow fetching 10-2 and Rose from parallel universe 'C'.  Rose could sacrifice herself by looking into the heart of the Tardis again so she can Captain Jack the Doctor into immortality with another "I bring life!" before dying prettily in the arms of her almost-Doctor, thus bringing closure to her story (again), and allowing Tennant the immortal (sic) line of "I don't want her to go."

Or something.

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Tomahawk wrote:

There's a few rumours revolcing Matt Smith's pending exit now, that I find a bit intriguing.

It enlists the Doctor's lives in this order
1. Bill Hartnell
2. Pat Throughton
3. Jon Pertwee
4. Tom Baker
5. Peter Davison
6. Colin Baker
7. Sylvester McCoy
8. Paul McGann
9. John Hurt
10. Chris Eccleston
11. David Tennant
12. David Tennant
13. Matt Smith


So why is this intriguing, and why is Tennant listed twice?

Well, think about it. They've gone ahead and made Hurt's War Doctor count. Sure, he apparently isn't "The Doctor", but the "War Doctor", but this incarnation should still count as one life. Or regeneration. But then there's Tennant x2. This isn't the Meta-crisis Doctor, but rather the regeneration from "The Stolen Earth" that was induced by a Dalek. Tennant regenerated, but used his own DNA to make it seem like a healing effect instead.

Thus making Smith the 13th and final Doctor, unless he's somehow given some extra lives.

Now, if Tennant and Hurt don't count, then neither should Pertwee, as his Doctor is enforced onto Throughton by the time lords.

Well, a question that occurs to me is the same as you. Does Hurt count as a regeneration or a "cheat" due to the Sisters' science? Same thing with the Pertwee regeneration, since that was imposed upon by the Time Lords as part of his exile (I honestly don't know how this was treated in the show, since I am only passingly familiar with early Who). So, that takes away two technical regenerations, making Smith 11 (again).

I am kind of wondering if the Sisters will show up again for Capaldi's regeneration.

God loves you!

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

http://metro.co.uk/2013/11/24/doctor-wh … f-4199592/

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Clearly, the regeneration issue is going to be the central conceit of the Christmas special.

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Well, he is definitely leaving options wide open. On the one hand, we have Hurt being counted as a regeneration, just that McGann is given a choice, much like Troughton was before Pertwee.

However, as one commentator in the linked story pointed out, more regenerations can be granted by the Time Lord Council, such as what they granted the Master for the Time War. So, if Gallifrey is still out there, then the potential to extend the Doctor's regenerations exists. There are many reasons that the Council would, that I can think of, so Moffat seems to be both abiding my Who continuity (for what its worth-this isn't Star Trek wink ) as well as leaving himself options to extend the Doctor's life.

God loves you!

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699

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

fireproof78 wrote:

Well, a question that occurs to me is the same as you. Does Hurt count as a regeneration or a "cheat" due to the Sisters' science? Same thing with the Pertwee regeneration, since that was imposed upon by the Time Lords as part of his exile (I honestly don't know how this was treated in the show, since I am only passingly familiar with early Who). So, that takes away two technical regenerations, making Smith 11 (again).

"Regeneration" didn't exist until the 3rd Doctor became the 4th, when the show was in a Buddhist phase (they even had a Time Lord Buddhist Monk there to help things along). The change from the 1st Doctor to the 2nd was considered just a "rejuvenation", becoming a younger version of the same person. The 2nd Doctor just had his face changed into the 3rd. Calling those regenerations is a retcon, although if a retcon is around long enough it takes another retcon to change it back smile

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700

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

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