The bit in there about the birth of the Buddha being some mystical occurrence is again, a Mahayana thing. The Lalitavistara Sutra. Which is completely off-the-wall bonkers with the amount of fantastical adornments, like being infused with the spirit of some elephant-god through whose assistance he burst out of his mother's side (an eventual mortal wound to her, so that he would not be "stained by impurities of the womb," ugh) and he literally hits the ground running in circles as a total dancing baby gif shouting his supremacy over all sentient beings.

Chapter 7: The Birth

I mean, what the hell. Can't have none of that.

In Theravada he's just like, human. A genius, but completely human. No magic murder cesarian.

The first line of the Dhamma Vanda [Homage to the Doctrine] is "svakkhato bhagavata dhammo" of which the most common translation is, "Well expounded [svakkhato] is the doctrine [dhammo] of the Blessed One [bhagavata]". I tend to take exception to the use of "blessed one" because of it's divine implications, and prefer the other accepted definition,  "auspicious one." Since any concession to the divine is an insult to the wonders of the natural universe.

Last edited by paulou (2014-01-08 21:04:42)

Well, that certainly lowers the bar for becoming the center of a worldwide religio-philosophical movement. Can a Temple of Christopher Hitchens be far behind? He got fat and went bald even.

All I can tell you is that in my entire Zen education, the Gautama Buddha has been depicted by nothing OTHER than just human.  Also, please understand my understanding of Mahayana has been through a Zen lens.  Zen, even more than Ch'an, really puts a lot of space between itself between the rest of Mahayana.  I did not one day decide to become Buddhist and then pick my sect from the macro on in like I would roll a D&D character.  which is to say I didn't start by choosing between Therevada and Mahayana and work my way down to Soto.  I was introduced to Zen, and that's what I was attracted to philosophically.  I was attracted to Shikitanza as a practice.  It is for those things I call myself Buddhist.  My decision on choosing a path may be insufficient for you, but that doesn't change the depth of the experience for me, nor does it make it less Buddhist than anyone else.  In fact, Soto cares very little for labels, just like I care very little for labels.  As a Martial Artist my philosophy is incorporate what works, abandon that which does not work, FOR YOU.  Philosophically, I approach my Zen study the same way. 

I started this whole thing by claiming I am NOT the go to expert on the differences between a lot of schools, nor should do I speak with any authority outside of my own practice.  Straight Mahayana may not be for you.  Probably aint for me, either.  But Zen IS for me.

Yeah, I'm far from an expert on anything about this either, but even in my limited understanding I can see the distance between Zen and other Mahayana practices. My flow chart's fuzzy, I don't know enough to know what carries through from where and why. Simplest answer that makes the most sense to me so far is that Theravada asks, "How do I escape samsara?" while Mahayana asks, "How do we escape samsara?"

Your reasoning, tools, and personal experience aren't on blast, I'm down with whatever works for you, too. I just learn out-loud in a kind of abrasive way. Everything is to illuminate some aspects of Buddhism for the sake of the discussion.

Like how it's hard for me to reconcile, for instance, the first line of the Heart Sutra (which by your admission was Dogen Zenji's jam) making appeals to Avalokiteśvara-The-Friendly-Ghost when the entire point of Buddhism is insight into the nature of reality. Huh?

Schools of Buddhism are hugely varied, and nuanced, and sort of tricky to dislodge a western Judeo-Christian bias when examining it since there is no sense of all-or-nothing acceptance or damnation. It's all whatever works for whoever. Except maybe in Pure Land, but that's just accepting grace or something.

Speaking of Judeo-Islam-Christian bias, I've never been able to understand the narcissism and myopia on display by practitioners of those religions that humans forever all over the world and for all time have had their own belief structures and yet theirs is in some way special.

Fully with you, Zarban. Now we need to hold a council to decide which of his essays are and aren't canon. (Feel free to condemn all of the Iraq War ones as heresy. )

Last edited by Abbie (2014-01-09 00:26:34)

That's a solid limerick right there.

Have you heard of Teague? We have this great forum I think you'd really enjoy.

Just wait till someone mentions a female magician named Blunt.

If this thread about the existence of God turns into a thread of bawdy light verse... well then this really is the best discussion forum on the web.

Back on topic:

These nuns, observed Cardinal Cabot,
Are too friendly, he said to the abbot
  There's nothing amiss
  With a celibate kiss
But they shouldn't get into the habit

Although Jimmy B thought we'd ignore it
It's not that hard being a poet
When planning a stunt
With Oscar winners named Hunt
You can just go to Helen Hunt for it