Re: Is there a God and why?

Dave wrote:

It's a brain versus heart argument, and you can't think yourself out of a feeling.

*waves* Hi, living proof that you're wrong about that sitting right here. Howya doin.

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Re: Is there a God and why?

Yah. Hi.

I wasn't the poster child for Christianity growing up, but there's a reason I use the term deconversion.

Last edited by BigDamnArtist (2013-11-13 11:25:38)

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: Is there a God and why?

Happy to be proved wrong, and it was a poor choice of words on my part. We're you both sceptical as christians?

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Re: Is there a God and why?

But even that argument has flaws, which came first, the feeling of the god or the knowledge of the god? We're all born atheists and are essentially brainwashed into the religion of our parents or guardian. So arguably, thinking begets the feeling, as your frame of reference for the world and life influences how you process things. A person who believes in the supernatural is much more likely to encounter the supernatural. A person who believes in a god is much more likely to see their hand at work.

I confess to a reluctance to see religious matters as coming from the heart, I see such framing as an attempt to empower the religious/spiritual side of knowledge and imbue it with some sort of protection from reality.

It's all the brain my friends.

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. - Carl Sagan

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Re: Is there a God and why?

I think it goes deeper than that. There has always been a space for religion and superstition in our cultures, perhaps the feeling (or lack of it) relates to exposure to different points of view?

Religion is often a way to build community. is the Internet (and places like this) a replacement for church? We come here and praise or damn celluloid deities, and feel good about ourselves for contributing.

I suppose my point is that the feeling of faith has many forms, and it's not something which I like to see systematically hacked at if people don't appear ready to consider alternatives. That doesn't build community.

Last edited by Dave (2013-11-13 11:56:35)

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Re: Is there a God and why?

Dorkman wrote:

And for all we know, they put out a sequel to their story that said exactly this and just didn't wind up getting passed on down the centuries. We know that deliberate hoaxes, once they've taken hold in people's minds, can survive being exposed even by the masterminds of the hoax. It can even intensify them. Ask the guys who made that Bigfoot video, or the folks who started the crop circle craze.

And just to throw in a point about movies -- I know:  on this board? what am I thinking? -- that's what I found really surprising about The Last Temptation of Christ. 

All the furore was about Jesus having sex with Mary Magdalene (in an extended 'fantasy' sequence related to the ultimate temptation of the title, and the only one that has any real power: the temptation to just chuck it all and go be a normal person).  However, I'd have thought the real controversy was later in that sequence, when the non-crucified Jesus meets Paul.  Paul is preaching Christianity, that Christ died on the cross for our sins, etc.  When Jesus confronts him about the fact that everything he's saying is a lie, Paul basically says "I don't fucking care."  I was a little surprised that people didn't get more upset about that.

Anyway, I can't speak to the movie as a Christian really, but I find it enormously spiritually renewing, in terms of a story of being unsure what the right thing is to do, to then being sure, to then finding the strength to do it at great personal sacrifice.  And the literal end of the movie, through into the closing credits, is one of the most amazing screen experiences I've ever had.

For the next hour, everything in this post is strictly based on the available facts.

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Re: Is there a God and why?

Dave wrote:

We're you both sceptical as christians?

Not to get into it too much or derail the thread. I was raised Christian, and was just pretty much going along with the program, like I said I was never the poster child, but it was just the way the world was. Then shortly after I moved to high school (Grade 9, age 15ish for the international folks) I started noticing things, questioning a lot of stuff. And that ball kept rolling and growing for nearly 2 years, and really not to get into it, but I hated myself for a lot of that time, I was trying to balance this thing that had always been apart of my life, the guy everyone around me expected me to be (When you grow up in a Christian family, it's not exaggerating to say everyone I knew) with my slow realization that I couldn't believe any of it any more. Long story short, spiralling depression, a lot of anger, hatred mostly directed at myself, confusion and long...long...long...nights not sleeping and arguing with myself about my own soul. It was...bad. To put it mildly. It wasn't really until about grade 11 that I had it all sorted out enough to actually say to myself I was an atheist, and then I began to just silently slip away from the church, but I couldn't really do much cause I was still living with my parents and I couldn't tell them any of this, cause well...we have a strange relationship at the best of times, so that was just more stress, and then that's pretty much when I went full bore off the deep end of depression in high school, and it got really bad, but bleh, beside the point. Then I moved to Vancouver right after high school, and was allowed to flower into the lovely atheist you all know and love today.

TL;DR, If given the chance, I probably would not go through high school again, but for reasons that have nothing to do with high school.

/backtothethread

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: Is there a God and why?

Squiggly_P wrote:

As a result, I feel that religion in all of it's forms is possibly the greatest atrocity of human history, and the source of most of our problems, though I suppose religion is really just the most common of the 'us vs them' excuses out there. I think that political parties are the new religion here in the US. Humans seem to be very good at finding excuses to hate each other.

Yes, there's already enough real divisions within humanity: gender, class, race, age, disability, sexuality, etc without having to invent imaginary divides.

A C Grayling, a secularist philosopher in London, was visiting a multi-denominational school that was boasting of how accommodating it was to all religions. Muslims kids were friends with Christian and Hindu kids, etc. And he asked one of the kids 'what do you think will happen to your friend when he dies?' And the answer was 'he'll go to hell'. And somehow the kids could be friends at the same time 'knowing' that the friends they sit next to in class and play with in the breaks, will one day be tortured for ever.

not long to go now...

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Re: Is there a God and why?

Makes you wonder doesn't it? The level of dissonance that would require (although hell forms the key incentive for believing and converting others). I postulate the rather crazy idea that the majority don't really believe any of it. Or at least, the air of certainty is a smokescreen and like everybody else on this blue marble, believers are shit scared (perhaps more so).

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. - Carl Sagan

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Re: Is there a God and why?

I was brought up Roman Catholic, went to a religious school and all that jazz, but there was always doubt for me. One of my favourite books was this Children's Encyclopaedia, which taught me all about evolution and the history of the universe without any mention of a God, so I guess you could say this book kickstarted my atheism.

I had my inner monologues over 'Is there or isn't there?', but it wasn't till I was around 10 or 11 that I heard atheism was a thing and I realised 'Oh wait, so I'm not alone on this?' and I have been a firm non-believer ever since.

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Re: Is there a God and why?

BigDamnArtist wrote:

It seems to be something that a lot of people tell me whenever I try to talk religion with them, that 'It doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense, so long as you believe in it." or "So long as you believe it, it will be true."

Which I find to be an entirely mind boggling sentiment.?

You're right to find it mind boggling, it's a ridiculous statement. Universalism is pretty popular these days and it's just baloney. They wanna have their cake and eat it too. The problem is, 2+2 ain't 6. Ever. It's not 4 for you. It's just 4. Belief in something doesn't make it true. The truth of it makes it true. So if we have contradicting beliefs, we can't both be right. People don't like to accept that there are universal truths that apply to everyone.

This is one of the few things that Christians an atheists can generally agree on. We are not all on "different paths to truth." Some people are just wrong.

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Re: Is there a God and why?

BigDamnArtist wrote:

Well, that helps, I think I can kinda see where you're coming from.

Alright shifting gears based on your last sentence.

Can someone please explain to me this idea of "faith" being more important than "knowing what you're believing in to be true". It seems to be something that a lot of people tell me whenever I try to talk religion with them, that 'It doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense, so long as you believe in it." or "So long as you believe it, it will be true."

Which I find to be an entirely mind boggling sentiment. I'm not sure if it's me being an atheist and approaching the universe from a more thinking based perspective or what, but it always blows my mind whenever I hear it (And when I hear it in movies, especially used as a plot device it really pisses me off, in cases of actual magic powers notwithstanding) and I've never had it or the idea behind it explained to me in a way I can comprehend.

So, any takers to try and teach the kid currently taping the class hamster to a paper airplane?

I can only speak for myself and my own experience, but faith isn't just wishing something is true. I point towards archeological evidence because it shows evidence that the Bible might be true. Historical accuracy and all that. Like I said, the evidence that I have read is showing that the Bible has historical accuracy, as well as internal consistency. That's important to me, because if something claims to be the truth, then shouldn't it hold up as such?

Of course, there will never be 100% proof, any more than I can prove any part of human history occurred. But, the Bible is something unique, and even when the people didn't have a "Bible" like we have, there was still a consensus among early Christians as to what was canon, or holy scripture.

Dorkman asked if I found the Quran just as compelling. The short answer is no. The long answer is that the historicity is questionable but in the end is also one man's vision. The Bible is 40 men with consistency of message and theme. Like I said, there are so many layers to the Bible, beyond the whole "it's a fantasy book" idea or "many cultures has religious beliefs." Sorry, to me, it just isn't that simple.

For my part, fear of hell fire has never motivated me to believe in a deity. The nature of man, and the nature of the world is what does that.

I really should stop the religious talks on the internet...

God loves you!

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Re: Is there a God and why?

sellew wrote:
Dorkman wrote:

And for all we know, they put out a sequel to their story that said exactly this and just didn't wind up getting passed on down the centuries. We know that deliberate hoaxes, once they've taken hold in people's minds, can survive being exposed even by the masterminds of the hoax. It can even intensify them. Ask the guys who made that Bigfoot video, or the folks who started the crop circle craze.

However, I'd have thought the real controversy was later in that sequence, when the non-crucified Jesus meets Paul.  Paul is preaching Christianity, that Christ died on the cross for our sins, etc.  When Jesus confronts him about the fact that everything he's saying is a lie, Paul basically says "I don't fucking care."  I was a little surprised that people didn't get more upset about that.

There's a fantastic novel by the author of The Golden Compass called The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ that deals with this issue. Long story short, there were two babies born to Mary, one called Jesus and one called Christ. Christ is hired by a shadowy figure (who is heavily implied to be Satan) and ordered to follow his brother and record his words—but to deviate from the facts when "the truth is more important than history"—and ultimately takes on the role of his dead brother to fabricate the resurrection. It was a very interesting read. Also notable is that it provided a very sympathetic look at the Pharisees; Caiaphas, the high priest, doesn't want to execute Jesus, but has no choice because Jesus is going out of His way to stir up trouble and is going to bring the wrath of the Romans down upon the entire Jewish population unless something is done.

Last edited by Abbie (2013-11-13 21:25:05)

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Re: Is there a God and why?

fireproof78 wrote:

But, the Bible is something unique, and even when the people didn't have a "Bible" like we have, there was still a consensus among early Christians as to what was canon, or holy scripture.

The Bible is really not that unique or impressive. The 40 people writing on message were selected out of many other people writing off-message. So of course what's reached us has a consistency of message, that's why these specific ones were selected and others weren't. That's arguably compelling for sociopolitical and historical reasons, but it doesn't make the Bible a unique and special snowflake in all of human history.

It seems more to me that you're predisposed to the Bible and you're coming up with post hoc rationalizations that it's something special in order to justify your predisposition.

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Re: Is there a God and why?

Dorkman wrote:

The Bible is really not that unique or impressive. The 40 people writing on message were selected out of many other people writing off-message. So of course what's reached us has a consistency of message, that's why these specific ones were selected and others weren't.

And not even those forty are united in thought or message—the Pentateuch has God condemning children for the sins of their parents, while Micah says God abhors punishing children for said sins; the earliest parts of the OT are all polytheistic in nature (redacted in current English translations to reflect otherwise), while post-exilic material is monotheistic, etc.

Dorkman wrote:

It seems more to me that you're predisposed to the Bible and you're coming up with post hoc rationalizations that it's something special in order to justify your predisposition.

Exactly. I came to realize, during my deconversion, that if Christianity were any other religion I wouldn't be putting in anywhere near the effort I was in order to make it work, because it was self-evidently fantastic. The only reason I was resisting not believing is because I was raised to believe and had existed with that belief for almost seventeen years.

Last edited by Abbie (2013-11-13 21:31:23)

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Re: Is there a God and why?

What I find fascinating was that Christianity sprung from the belief that Jesus was the promised Messiah, and yet the people that came up with the prophecy and were waiting for the messiah don't believe he was the messiah and still don't. I always thought this was somewhat of a red flag.

And I love how the guys that came up with this monotheistic, Abrahamic god lark were initially polytheists (like most early civilisations), which is completely at odds with the biblical story.

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. - Carl Sagan

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Re: Is there a God and why?

Re: Is there a God and why?

So, clearly God does NOT want us to eat pineapples.

Re: Is there a God and why?

Correct, it is an insult to his greatness. Believe in evolution? Please. Mac thoroughly debunked that nonsense.

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/83312445/

Last edited by Ewing (2013-11-13 22:46:11)

Re: Is there a God and why?

Ewing wrote:

What the flipping heck?

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Re: Is there a God and why?

My Christian neighbour says science isn't real, that it is God who gives us all the ability to do things. She'd say that would mean that that banana is the result of God's work as it was grown by man and therefore, by God.

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Re: Is there a God and why?

Pretty sneaky of God to build a whole universe that seems to run on testable, repeatable laws when it totally doesn't.  What's His deal?  Is he trolling us?

Re: Is there a God and why?

God is the ultimate troll.

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Re: Is there a God and why?

I still think the story of Abraham and Isaac is way more entertaining if you imagine god just going 'PSSSSSYYYYYYYCCCH!!! HAHAH, lolz, you thought I was serious. You're such an idiot."

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: Is there a God and why?

BigDamnArtist wrote:

I still think the story of Abraham and Isaac is way more entertaining if you imagine god just going 'PSSSSSYYYYYYYCCCH!!! HAHAH, lolz, you thought I was serious. You're such an idiot."

Yep, I can see that happening smile

I have a book, and encourage others to read it, because it says things better than I. It basically takes the Hebrew Bible apart, and looks for historical and archeological evidence for events. That's it. While not all of the stories can be verified and many parts are excluded by his research, there are parts that are historically verifiable. Significant? To me, yes.

The author has a point that I found interesting, given this debate. That is, that maybe our modern culture takes the stories in the Bible too literally, that the whole of the Garden of Eden is a story, like other stories we would tell, to illustrate a point-um, don't talk to strangers wink

His point is that it doesn't erase the morality of the story or the importance of the lessons taught if the stories are not true. 

As for my own personal bias, yes I am biased. I have read many things, listened to many speakers, looked at different religions, philosophies, talked with agnostics, atheists, Mormons, Christian Scientists, and Jews. Quite simply, there is evidence for the Bible and there is evidence against the Bible, but there is evidence. All I say, is consider the evidence, maybe study a little Hebrew and Greek and learn the context like any other historical document. Because, even with much post-modern scholarship, the Bible still gets treated like an historic text, regardless of the theology.

As for the theology, it does come down to faith. Without faith, belief really is impossible. There will never, ever, be proof of god or a deity that satisfies everyone. Cop out? Yeah, probably smile

Edit:
Alright, I  won't just cop out. I meant that in jest tongue

In all seriousness, I really don't want to derail this thread by turning it in to a me centered, one sided debate. I find all religions fascinating, much in the same way C.S. Lewis did. He liked myths but wondered at the source of them all. I also feel akin to a description that Brandon Sanderson wrote in his "Hero of Ages" book. The thoughts are reflections of Mormon theology but that idea is that not all religions, in his fictional world, are true but that they had elements of truth in them.

To me, that is why I study the Bible, the Tanankh, the Book of Mormon, and Quran. It all is a fascinating reflection of man searching for meaning. I haven't made it to the Eastern religions yet because the circular world concept, reincarnation and such, still is rough for me to grasp. I do like the Buddhist concept of the Middle Path and employ it often as a matter of personal philosophy. It reflects upon the Christian virtue of self-control and moderation as well.

Yes, I come back to the Bible. The history of it is fascinating to me, and the historical origins of the Bible are still interesting. It may be unremarkable to you that 40 plus authors can write a book and have a cohesive theme but it is interesting to me, even from a literary point of view. Heck, the Psalms alone take on a beautiful poetic style when in Hebrew. The letters of Paul are classic Greek in their form and design. There are so many details in the literature that that alone keeps me researching.

Well, that's the draw to me smile

Last edited by fireproof78 (2013-11-14 07:27:26)

God loves you!

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