Topic: Unobtainium vs. MacGuffin
No, this isn't a fight to the death. This is, in so many words, why calling the rock in Avatar 'unobtainium' is weird. And why.
And, please, if there is any B.S., please call me on it.
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No, this isn't a fight to the death. This is, in so many words, why calling the rock in Avatar 'unobtainium' is weird. And why.
And, please, if there is any B.S., please call me on it.
I'm not aware of a film-oriented version of the term "unobtainium", but for engineers and scientists, unobtainium is something that you need but is not obtainable... hence "unobtainium". It would be something like cold fusion or a room-temperature superconductor or matter older than the universe, etc. Something that would solve your problem perfectly, if only it existed.
1) The stuff in Avatar is not technically "unobtainium" in the sense that it's... you know... obtainable. However, the people in the film are referring to it by name as unobtainium, so I'm assuming that they named this stuff unobtainium because they had previously considered it somehow impossible. Then they discovered this stuff which defied their logic and solved some hypothetical engineering problem somehow. I assumed while watching the film that they named it after the engineering term for this reason. They don't really go into what exactly its properties are, but it's worth a buttload of money, so it's apparently something really awesome that everyone wants but which there's not nearly enough of to go around. I think for the plot that's about all you need to know.
2) I do consider it a MacGuffin. It's something the humans want and gives them sufficient motivation to drive their actions. They do want the money, but the money doesn't fund the Avatar program. At least that's not all it funds. One must assume that there are some extremely wealthy CEO's on earth, not to mention an industry of some sort that relies on this mineral. The Avatar program is funded by the company in an effort to make the acquisition of unobtainium easier. The mineral itself seems to be worth a lot more than the avatars, guessing from the sorta cavalier attitude the military guys have toward them at the end of the film.
Actually, what I found funny about the way they dealt with the stuff is that Ribisi's character is all "This shit is worth hella bucks, dawg! Scope out the size of that deposit! We need a piece of that shit!" So... by selling a buttload of the stuff, demand would go down and the price would go down, thus hurting their business. Maybe their plan was to sit on the stuff like the diamond industry...
According to Cameron's original treatment, Unobtainium is essentially the perfect electrical transmitter, zero loss of power and all other sorts of good stuff that modern scientists would certainly consider unobtainable. So yeah, thats basically his reasononing behind the name.
Also...
it's highly magnetic...and that makes the mountains fly..
The more yooou knooooow.
So... by selling a buttload of the stuff, demand would go down and the price would go down, thus hurting their business. Maybe their plan was to sit on the stuff like the diamond industry...
I'm totally with Squiggly_P, at least up to this point. Exxon doesn't get rich not selling oil.
They do, tho. Lowering oil production causes the price per barrel to skyrocket.
The law of supply and demand describes a curve, the end of which is zero demand for zero supply. The area under the curve, however, is filled with money. Giovanni Ribisi wants that money.
There are plenty of things that make no goddamn sense in Avatar. A corporation wanting a scarce material to sell it for profit is not one of them.
Zarban always makes me feel better.
According to Cameron's original treatment...
But when first viewed, the audience doesn't have the benefit of what Cameron considers to be canon. They can only understand the world based on the exposition in the film itself; Ribisi says, "It's the most valuable, rarest, most sexy substance ever. We want it."
That's plenty of explanation, granted. We don't need an intricate explanation of Unobtainium's impact on Earth to understand that the company is definitely ready to kill for the stuff.
I'm just objecting to the use of the original treatment notes as canon when no one in the theatrical release actually explains its properties. Sorry, maul2.
never did i say that I was treating it as canon. (If you'll note I both bookended both sides of that sentence with "according to Cameron").
And honestly I was just making an off hand statement/joke.
In reality, there would never be an economic reason to travel to another star.
Travelling to Alpha Centauri would entail enormous technical and engineering challenges. The level of science needed for interstellar travel far surpasses the relatively simple task of synthesising a mineral. Whatever properties unobtanium has, it's simply protons and neutrons and electrons, which can be manipulated in a laboratory for 0.00000001% of the expense of going to another star.
The analogy would be something like Europeans travelling across the Atlantic Ocean for something trivial like clean water, when it's much easier just to filter the dirty water at home.
Therefore all the alien invasion scenarios are false e.g. they want to eat us or want our land. Because if you can travel to another star, you've ALREADY SOLVED all other engineering challenges.
In reality, there would never be an economic reason to travel to another continent.
FTFY
Right, I always wondered why we just fabricated all the oil we need in a laboratory instead of invading other countries and stealing it from them.
Wait...
Shit.
Interstellar travel is orders of magnitude more difficult that simply sailing or flying across the ocean. Surely you've seen those scaling demonstrations that highlight the vast distances between stars. Then you factor in the speed of light limit, and no one is going anywhere.
To land a man on nearby Mars for a few months by 2050 would cost $1 trillion, and no country is even thinking about it. Imagine the cost of sending mining equipment and sending back ore. It'd cost more than the combined GDP of Earth. Far simpler just to make it ourselves. All stuff is just atoms. Each proton is the same as any other proton.
And that's just the local neighborhood, let alone another star system which would take hundreds of years to get to and back from.
Yeah, that's not how chemistry works.
You're thinking of alchemy.
CERN, Fermilab, Unilac, etc can turn one element into another by neutron bombardment. Fission and fusion are 'alchemical' processes in that they transmute elements. Since the quantum revolution of the 1920s, we know that adding or subtracting protons can change an element. In fact, the very definition of an element is solely dependent on the number of protons and nothing else.
We can even make elements that don't exist in nature. One facility in Germany specialises in that. Natural elements only occur up to 92 (Uranium), but we can make elements up to 118 (and rising).
The point is we knew how to do this in the 1940s, but it won't be for hundreds of years until we can reach other stars. If anything, we're going backwards now that the Shuttle is retired.
And if "unobtanium" is a mineral, we'll that's even easier to produce than a new element, as minerals are simply a function of temperature pressure, and composition.
So I think the conclusion is valid: travelling to other stars is vastly more difficult than producing a mineral or an element. There'll be scientific reasons for interstellar travel (especially with probes), but not for mining ore. Avatar is just commentary on the 16th century Spanish conquest of the Americas, and all other subsequent colonisations. The dynamics of Earth's geopolitics have just been lazily transposed to space, but without allowing for the fact that space significantly alters the cost/benefit equation.
It's worth noting that alchemy is, in fact, completely plausible. You could conceivably turn lead atoms into gold atoms by knocking protons out of the nuclei.
Only trouble is, the amount of energy required to do so (and the economic cost of producing that energy) far exceeds the value of the gold you could produce. Not to mention that producing more makes it less scarce, and therefore less valuable.
We don't know what unobtanium is but it may well be that it is, in fact, more economically sensible to travel to another star than to attempt to manufacture it in any quantity, let alone large quantities, on Earth. It may well be that such a thing would require more energy than anything less than a star could produce. It's also worth noting that part of Earth's problem in AVATAR is that the planet's resources have been pillaged and are running out. They may not have the capacity even theoretically to produce such alchemical energy.
By the way, the elements above 92 are, as I understand it, mostly unstable, existing only experimentally in the form of a handful of atoms which disintegrate shortly after forming. Hardly anything to build empires upon.
In short, we don't know the economic or scientific resources of planet Earth when AVATAR takes place, nor their mechanisms of interstellar travel, nor do we know the chemical properties of unobtanium or what it would take to synthesize it. We have almost nothing on which to hang assumptions or assertions regarding what is more economically reasonable for that society in those circumstances.
I realize that the notion of mining simple minerals from other star systems is, on the face of it, ridiculous. I got the impression that the comically-named Unobtanium was, in some way, magical and therefore, by extension, not readily synthesizable in other locations. Floaty-mountains, trees-of-life, et cetera.
But this discussion of the economics of interstellar mining reminds me of the, let's call them, debates that I saw after Star Trek 2009 came out, and various self-declared experts traded verbal blows on the subject of whether starships ought to be built on the ground, or in space. As if Starfleet Engineering were a real thing, and we had the first clue how to go about it.
To me, it's like sixteenth-century entrepreneurs discussing the merits of creating Facebook.
From what I've read about Cameron, I doubt he'd resort to 'magic'. I'm sure he subscribes to the basic assumption of science: that the laws of physics are the same in all places, in all times.
No, we don't know what the properties of unobtanium are. I assumed it was just a room-temperature superconductor. But we do know how much energy it would take to send a mass of, say, 10,000 tonnes over 4 light years to Alpha Centuri. That's a relatively straightforward physics calculation and the result is staggering.
Yes, it could be that Earth is suffering environmentally. But I maintain that if we've solved the gargantuan engineering problem of interstellar travel, then we'd already have the know-how to solve just about any other technological problem.
It's a MacGuffin. Some device to bring two cultures into conflict, even if it is just recreates 16th century geopolitics. In that sense, Avatar is not science fiction, but a period piece.
I presumed 'magic', because the movie features floating mountains in an area where gravity still works the way it does elsewhere in the vicinity; waterfalls fall down, there aren't huge winds caused by differing air masses, etc.. Already, whatever the laws of physics are for us, they're different in the movie. Maybe those mountains don't have a mass of a million tons, but only a million grams.
Plus, not wishing to sound like a Baroquen web developer, but what happens to the mass-times-distance economic argument when some bugger invents warp drive, and we get to short-cut 99.9999% of the way?
In that sense, Avatar is not science fiction, but a period piece.
Well, in that sense I'm of the opinion that true science fiction is always a period piece, a time capsule of contemporary hopes and fears with a fantastical gloss over it.
Sadly, I don't think there's anything exclusively 16th century about imperialism.
Dorkman: "true science fiction is always a period piece"
I'd agree with that, simply because it's impossible for one author to imagine all the social, political, economic, religious, philosophical, etc consequences of future developments. Almost all 'predictions' in sci-fi films turn out to be wrong, grossly overestimating developments in transport (which has largely stagnated since Apollo was cancelled) and grossly underestimating telecommunications.
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