Re: FCPx and the art of the epic fail.

Eddie wrote:

To be fair, Apple's FAQ does nothing to address real concerns that face FCP houses right now.

That may be true, but I'd rather see an actual response to it rather than something like this. As an interested bystander, it's becoming increasingly difficult to wade through the responses to find what's old, wrong, or overblown, and what are actually legitimate concerns.

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Re: FCPx and the art of the epic fail.

Didn't Jeff do that in this very thread?

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: FCPx and the art of the epic fail.

Gregory Harbin wrote:

That may be true, but I'd rather see an actual response to it rather than something like this. As an interested bystander, it's becoming increasingly difficult to wade through the responses to find what's old, wrong, or overblown, and what are actually legitimate concerns.

As an interested bystander I find this response puzzling. Reading through this thread and the linked blogs gives a clear picture of why FCPx fails as a product for the professional market.

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Re: FCPx and the art of the epic fail.

FixedR6 wrote:
Gregory Harbin wrote:

That may be true, but I'd rather see an actual response to it rather than something like this. As an interested bystander, it's becoming increasingly difficult to wade through the responses to find what's old, wrong, or overblown, and what are actually legitimate concerns.

As an interested bystander I find this response puzzling. Reading through this thread and the linked blogs gives a clear picture of why FCPx fails as a product for the professional market.

There has been quite a bit of misinformation (probably based on a lot of lazy early reviews) in the thread so far. I was hoping for a reasoned response to Apple's new response to the pro market. Jeff's post did such, yes. But one editor does not the opinion of the entire professional market make.

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Re: FCPx and the art of the epic fail.

I highly recommend digging into Jeff's tumblr. Not only does he cover it at length from varying angles (what's wrong with it, what it could have been, etc.) in different posts, but said posts have been passed around the blogosphere an awful lot lately, giving them at least some amount of weight.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: FCPx and the art of the epic fail.

I'm curious as to what misinformation there was out there.  My reactions are based on what I've experienced first hand with it.

Eddie Doty

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Re: FCPx and the art of the epic fail.

Eddie wrote:

I'm curious as to what misinformation there was out there.  My reactions are based on what I've experienced first hand with it.

Eddie wrote:

- No OMF export.  How am I supposed to send cuts to my audio engineer for sweetening if he uses Pro Tools?

Apple wrote:

Can I send my project to a sound editing application such as Pro Tools?
Yes; you can export your project in OMF or AAF format using Automatic Duck Pro Export FCP 5.0. More information is available on the Automatic Duck website: http://automaticduck.com/products/pefcp/.

Eddie wrote:

- No XML or EDL export or import.  Well, guess I'm not sharing projects with users not in my vicinity.

Apple wrote:

Can Final Cut Pro X export XML?
Not yet, but we know how important XML export is to our developers and our users, and we expect to add this functionality to Final Cut Pro X. We will release a set of APIs in the next few weeks so that third-party developers can access the next-generation XML in Final Cut Pro X.

Eddie wrote:

- All local projects, no relinking media.  Well shit, I guess Im not sharing projects with ANYONE.

Apple wrote:

Can I share projects with other editors?
Yes. You have several options for sharing projects. You can hand over just the project file, and the recipient can reconnect the project to his or her own copies of the Event. Or you can send the complete project and Event as a package to another editor. Final Cut Pro X includes options for duplicating, moving, and consolidating projects and associated media to streamline sharing between editors.

Can I store media in locations other than my system drive?
Yes. Turning off the “Copy files to Final Cut Events folder” option leaves the imported files where they are currently located. You can also move the project and associated media at any point during the editing process by dragging the project to another mounted hard drive within the Project Library.

Eddie wrote:

- NO MULTICAM.  Wow, Apple.  You REALLY don't anyone editing sitcoms, documentaries, reality shows, or Star Wars then I guess.

Apple wrote:

Does Final Cut Pro X support multicam editing?
Not yet, but it will. Multicam editing is an important and popular feature, and we will provide great multicam support in the next major release. Until then, Final Cut Pro X offers some basic support with automatic clip synchronization, which allows you to sync multiple video and audio clips using audio waveforms, creating a Compound Clip that can be used for simple multicam workflows.

Eddie wrote:

- CANNOT STORE MEDIA OUTSIDE OF PROJECT.   Devastating.  I guess this hour long long docu series Im doing can ONLY BE DONE BY ME EVER.

Apple wrote:

Can I specify a scratch disk location?
Yes. When you import media, you can specify the Event and the drive where you’d like to put it. You can also specify where you’d like to put your project. In Final Cut Pro X, a project and its rendered media always travel together in the same folder, so it’s easy to move projects between different hard drives and computers.

Eddie wrote:

- No tape capture.  I mean...I ....wow.

Apple wrote:

Can I edit my tape-based workflow with Final Cut Pro X?
Yes, in a limited manner. Final Cut Pro X is designed for modern file-based workflows and does not include all the tape capture and output features that were built into Final Cut Pro 7. Final Cut Pro X does support FireWire import for DV, DVCPRO, DVCPRO 50, DVCPRO HD, and HDV. In addition, companies like AJA and Blackmagic offer free deck control software that allows you to capture from tape and output to tape.

EDIT:

Let me be clear, here. I'm not an Apple apologist here or anywhere else. I think Apple seriously screwed up, as evidenced by all the angry editors on DIF, and on my Facebook, Gtalk, and my RSS reader. They fucked up. Done.

How to solve it? I'm with Jeff.

Long-ass quote here:

Jeff wrote:

Apple, announce that Final Cut Pro 7 is end-of-lifed. Put it back on sale. Commit publicly to continue selling it, and providing direct support and compatibility and bug-fix updates for it, until July 1, 2013. That’s two years, rounded off a bit. Two years is an entirely reasonable time to continue supporting an end-of-lifed product that your customers depend on in their businesses. Come right out and say, bluntly, “We will not add any new features at all to Final Cut Pro. We’re giving it the minimum necessary attention for the minimum reasonable time.” We know how to cope with that. It’s been done a million times in this industry. It’s fine. And it means that anybody who uses FCP 7 now can continue to do so with confidence while they transition off of it. You can even turn it into a marketing opportunity: “We think Final Cut Pro X is the way to go. But we understand it’s not there yet. So consider it as your next-generation NLE of choice, as you make your transition off Final Cut Pro.”

And if you really wanted to be cool, Apple? I mean really revolutionary in the industry? You’d give away a copy of Final Cut Pro X to everybody who has a valid Final Cut Pro serial number. “We value the customers who’ve chosen Final Cut Pro. We want a chance to convince you that Final Cut Pro X should be on your radar. Here’s a code to download a copy for free on the App Store. Please let us know what you think.”

Totally agree. And what's strange is, Apple's done this before, several times. With OS 9 to OS X, with PPC to Intel, Apple managed to transition really well, managing to release incomplete systems while maintaining limited, but crucial support for the old.

I seriously don't understand why they botched this so much.

Last edited by Gregory Harbin (2011-06-30 00:02:47)

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Re: FCPx and the art of the epic fail.

Devil is in the details.  I should have been more specific.

OMF does not exist and requires third party support.  When they DO include it, it will lean on metadata instead of tracks. 

Same with XML.

For tape control, they provide a list of cameras that will NOT interface with Devk control, and several of them are formats that Pro's use.  Otherwise, they say rely on third party support.

For scratch disk setting, which used to be one of the first things you did, is now auto defaulted to your local drive.  Makes no sense in an age of 1 TB drives for 200 bucks.

No Multicam NOW.  It is pointless to launch it without it.

I was mistaken on relinking, and I retract that one.

So most of my quips are still there, just more specific now.  It isn't misinformation, just specificity.

Eddie Doty

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Re: FCPx and the art of the epic fail.

I've heard every one of those arguments used in anger except the "it's all FUD from Avid" one. I may've missed it, but I don't think so, since it seems like Avid is basically sitting there trying to be as still as possible, going, "Shhh, shhh, their vision's based on movement."

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Re: FCPx and the art of the epic fail.

Happy?

http://www.macrumors.com/2011/07/07/app … -on-fcp-x/

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Re: FCPx and the art of the epic fail.

Still no, mainly because the information I have on that event comes from somebody who was actually there, who says it was very different from what that rumor site alleges.

But first and foremost, FCP X dropped three weeks ago. That's an eternity. Everybody's already got their FCP-to-something-else transition plans well underway. For Apple to try to side-channel some incomplete and unhelpful info-drops that should have, at the very least, been printed on billboards on day one is just insulting. It smacks of "Oh, we've got it under control, and you never should've doubted us." Well no, you don't, Apple, and what's become blindingly obvious is that we should've doubted you long before this.

The thing about volume license sales? Yeah, no. What they said is that they are investigating the possibility of maybe allowing existing volume license holders to get additional keys on the licenses they've already bought. Which matters to virtually no one. As Mark Raudonis of Bunim-Murray said on Twitter last night, that doesn't mean a damn thing when you've got 125 individual licenses. The larger point, though, should not be lost: If you need an additional license for Final Cut Pro 7, tough. Apple will not sell you one. Period, end of discussion on that point.

The EDL thing seems to be an error. One person claimed to have heard it mentioned; I've not found anyone else who can confirm that.

The Xsan thing also appears to be erroneous. I think the person who reported that got confused by the fact that Lion is shipping in a few weeks with Xsan built into it, but FCP X ignores Xsan volumes even when running on Lion.

The XML thing is supposedly happening through third parties … but no third parties have announced any such thing. What Apple was saying there was apparently "We assume third parties will plug this gaping hole, probably. Whatever."

The broadcast monitoring thing appears to be a flat-out lie again. According to some people I've heard from at Aja, FCP X simply has no facility for third-party I/O boards. That function is not built in to the program. In order to get a preview, you have to reach into the graphics buffer and pull out a chunk of the program's main window, which is what Aja is doing right now with their recommended workaround. Rumor has it this is because FCP X does a lot of work in the graphics board itself … but in a profoundly stupid way. Rather than sending directives to the GPU and then reading rendered frames back into main memory for caching on disk (where they can be grabbed by third-party I/O drivers) it's just having the GPU pipe the output straight to the graphics monitor. This also goes to explain some of the rendering problems people have been reporting: Yes, FCP X is fast because it works this way, but you also never actually see any of your frames at any point while you work. Instead you just get a real-time preview which approximates what your final frames will look like. Which is, you know, kind of a problem if you're color-correcting!

The bottom line is still this: At best, Apple shipped an unfinished product. But that best-case scenario is becoming increasingly elusive, as more and more information comes out suggesting that FCP X is literally broken by design. Media management is a catastrophe, the trackless timeline means doing anything requires clumsy workarounds that oh by the way aren't actually figured out yet, and now we're hearing noise that FCP X can't even give you an accurate real-time preview because fidelity was sacrificed in the name of apparent speed.

So no, man. Not happy. Just increasingly indifferent. I've got Premiere here and it's meh whatever, Avid's on my to-do list and my copy of Smoke 2012 is in the mail. The world's moved on already.

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Re: FCPx and the art of the epic fail.

My take-away from the whole thing is that if you're a professional, try to enter relationships with software vendors where they need you as much as you need them.

If not, incentives get all fucked and you end up with something like FCPX. So in that perverted sense, yeah, I'm happy to have learned that lesson. It sucks that the industry has been slapped in the head with this reframe, but moving forward people that lean on packages like this to make a living are better off elsewhere.

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Re: FCPx and the art of the epic fail.

I think Paulou's absolutely right. It's too easy to become complacent. We all know the vendors will fuck you, but in the past it's been like not returning your emergency call at nine o'clock on Christmas Eve, or charging you ten grand a year for support. Taking a successful, widely used product and just dropping it is something I haven't had to experience before. It's a bit of a shock.

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Re: FCPx and the art of the epic fail.

Harrell, you mentioned getting Smoke.  How much was that?  they don't publish the price on their website...

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Re: FCPx and the art of the epic fail.

It's $15,000 for the software, about another $20,000 or so for the hardware. But I didn't buy it. They're sending me a non-rev copy. Just for being awesome, I guess. Plus I have a looooooong history with those guys, way back before they got bought by Autodesk.

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Re: FCPx and the art of the epic fail.

Jeffery Harrell wrote:

As Mark Raudonis of Bunim-Murray said on Twitter last night, that doesn't mean a damn thing when you've got 125 individual licenses.

When people ask me where I learned to edit, I say, "Mark Raudonis."

I interned at Bunim-Murray in the summer of 2000 and he, for whatever reason, saw something in me and let me apprentice (for lack of a better term) under him that summer.  He let me cut bumps and teases (as an INTERN, mind you) recommended books and movies, ripped my student films to shreds, let me work on my own projects after hours, and basically poured as much info as he could cram in my brain.  I have been lucky to call him a mentor, boss, and friend. 

I say all this as a preface to the larger point that he's one of the sharpest dudes out there in the world of post.  He switched all of BMP over to a FCP/XSAN company in 2004 when it was unheard of back then.  He did it because he was smart enough to see the advantages of it when the rest of the industry was still AVID.  Apple even filmed a commercial promoting FCP with him and aired it in all of their stores through 2005 (the video for which I can't find).  I rarely say trust everything a single person says, but Mark knows his shit, and you should all heed what he says.

Eddie Doty

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Re: FCPx and the art of the epic fail.

I was watching this documentary on Netflix the other night, Welcome to Macintosh (2008).  Jump to  01:01:22, they interview an editor talking about how great Final Cut was when it came out.  As I've said, I'm no editor, but even I am still in awe of Apple's decision here.  Makes me wonder about other changes that might be coming, like to hardware.  I'm overdue for a new phone and I've been playing with the idea of going with an Android platform.  As much as I generally like their products, I've found myself questioning my loyalty in the wake of this whole FCPX thing.  Frankly I'm a bit worried about what changes Lion will bring. // fingers crossed.

Re: FCPx and the art of the epic fail.

Hey Jeff,

Where is the link to Mark's twitter post.  Can't seem to find it.

Eddie Doty

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Re: FCPx and the art of the epic fail.

Here's the link, Eddie: https://twitter.com/markraudonis/status … 4821435392 I see now that I look at it that I paraphrased pretty … um … aggressively.

The fact that you got to work under him knocks me out, man. I got a really, really nice email from him last week about something I'd made, and I nearbouts peed myself in excitement.

Okay, I did pee myself. But only a little bit. I covered it up my dumping my nalgene in my lap … which in retrospect was kind of a bad move.

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Re: FCPx and the art of the epic fail.

Jeffery Harrell wrote:

Here's the link, Eddie: https://twitter.com/markraudonis/status … 4821435392 I see now that I look at it that I paraphrased pretty … um … aggressively.

The fact that you got to work under him knocks me out, man. I got a really, really nice email from him last week about something I'd made, and I nearbouts peed myself in excitement.

Okay, I did pee myself. But only a little bit. I covered it up my dumping my nalgene in my lap … which in retrospect was kind of a bad move.

Mark does not suffer fools at all (I've gotten reamed out a few times by him in my day) and so when he offers praise, it fucking means something.  I'll give him a call and mention I know you.

Eddie Doty

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Re: FCPx and the art of the epic fail.

Namedropper.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: FCPx and the art of the epic fail.

Teague, you fucking hypocrite.

;-)

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Re: FCPx and the art of the epic fail.

Jeffery Harrell wrote:

Here's the link, Eddie: https://twitter.com/markraudonis/status … 4821435392 I see now that I look at it that I paraphrased pretty … um … aggressively.

The fact that you got to work under him knocks me out, man. I got a really, really nice email from him last week about something I'd made, and I nearbouts peed myself in excitement.

Okay, I did pee myself. But only a little bit. I covered it up my dumping my nalgene in my lap … which in retrospect was kind of a bad move.

Erm…at least at this point, Mark's Twitter account is private. Did something happen?

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Re: FCPx and the art of the epic fail.

Damn, I'm sorry. I forgot his twits are private. My bad.

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Re: FCPx and the art of the epic fail.

Jeffery Harrell wrote:

Damn, I'm sorry. I forgot his twits are private. My bad.

He did add me back when I requested, but we should probably refrain from talking about the contents of the tweet here.

Jeff, if what you say about the Apple meeting is true (I'm looking forward to hearing something official out of Apple), then yes, I still agree with much of your blog post.

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