• From: Gardena, California
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Re: The Incredibles.

I'm with maul2. Beauty and the Beast was not an animated film aimed at adults. If it were, it wouldn't be rated G. It just isn't aimed at children to the exclusion of adults -- which I guess is why the distinction of "family" entertainment exists, vs. "kids" entertainment.

I think people laugh at hyperviolence because it's such a system shock. I'm sure people laughed and went "Ohhhhh!" during EXPENDABLES. It's not that it's funny, per se, more of a "I can't believe that just fucking HAPPENED" incredulous laughter. It's not that it's animation, therefore it's funny. It's funny because it's insane to see it in animation.

...I don't know if I'm making sense with that distinction. I mean to say that it's not that people see a cartoon and are therefore primed to assume that they're watching something funny. It's that when people see a cartoon, they are not primed to expect graphic violence, and the shock of seeing it makes them laugh (laughter is just a response to something unexpected -- a joke is only really funny when you don't see it coming).

Afro Samurai creates much the same reaction, as did the anime sequence in KILL BILL vol.1 (actually most of that movie caused those reactions in the audience).

I don't agree that Pixar's movies have fundamentally selfish protagonists all the way through (nor necessarily that HOME ALONE or HOOK do, either. I can give you PROBLEM CHILD). TOY STORY, UP, and CARS are distinctly about the protagonists having to learn not to be such pricks, and INCREDIBLES has some of that in Mr. Incredible's storyline but there's also the clear superhero save-the-world aspect. FINDING NEMO also has a bit of Marlin not being so overprotective (selfishness in its way), but he does truly love his son and risks everything to rescue him. TOY STORY 2 is about Woody's friends rescuing him; TOY STORY 3 is about Woody rescuing his friends; MONSTERS, INC. is about rescuing Boo; WALL-E is about Wall-E seeking a connection with Eve (but unselfishly -- he doesn't want anything from her, aside from the company, he just wants to give), and then Eve saving Wall-E, and also about the ship's captain saving humanity from itself despite it meaning giving up his comfort and authority. RATATOUILLE I don't remember because I saw it once and it left no impression but I think the rat and the dude were helping each other right?

I do think, however, that perhaps you've shone a light on a deeper explanation for why Pixar is "Pixar!" and Dreamworks is "oh, Dreamworks..." Pixar DOES tell stories about self-sacrifice and whatnot, and the stories work because we feel like they matter, like they're about something. Whereas until recently, Dreamworks made movies that were about the gags and pop culture references, but the characters were fundamentally selfish and that was the only thing driving them. Even when the arc is about learning not to be selfish -- SHREK, for example -- he hasn't really learned that at the end, has he? He's really only figured out that it benefits him to open up his heart to Donkey and Fiona. I didn't bother with SHARK TALE or MADAGASCAR but I'm guessing it's a lot of the same, and I don't even remember what the hell SHREKS 2 and 3 were putatively about.

But I loved KUNG FU PANDA, and HOW TO TRAIN YOUR DRAGON really made a lot of people at least cock their heads to the side and go "wait, Dreamworks? Hm, they might be getting this now." And in both cases -- although initially selfishly motivated -- the protagonists, as well as many of the supporting characters, ultimately have to put themselves aside and fight for something bigger.

THIS IS SO DEEP YOU GUYS

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  • From: Buffalo, NY
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Re: The Incredibles.

Squiggly_P wrote:

It's just perception here in the US is so screwed up and one dimensional. I went to see Princess Mononoke in the theater twice when it was showing and both times there was a large audience, and both times that audience would laugh at parts that were clearly not meant to be funny. There's a massacre going on in an early scene where samurai are hacking down fleeing peasants (laughter), and Ashitaka attacks them to stop the slaughter. He takes one guy's arms off (laughter) and then beheads another guy (laughter).

Ah, yes....

I want to take everyone back in time, to 1997. You're in a meeting of Disney executives, about to see the first footage from Princess Mononoke. Disney is riding high on the new generation of Disney animation, and they want to use this clout to partner with their kindred studio in Japan, Ghibli. They have acquired all video distribution rights to Ghibli films in Japan, and the right to bring them to the US uncut. To start off this amazing partnership, then are helping to fund master animator Miyaziki's brand new film, which based on all his previous films like Kiki's Delivery Service and Laputa Castle in the Sky should be an amazing movie for the whole family and will get a wide US theatrical release.

The lights dim, the movie starts... and they see the scene you describe above.

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  • Teague
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Re: The Incredibles.

BTW, there's a lovely little documentary called The Pixar Story on Netflix Instant right now. Not quite as good or as interesting as Waking Sleeping Beauty, but...good and interesting nonetheless.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: The Incredibles.

I don't think I've ever been quite as affected by a cartoon as Watership Down. There are images from that film that are burned into my mind. Whenever I see or think about rabbits, it's hard for me to not conjure up a bloody Woundwort.

And by the way, great discussion guys.

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. - Carl Sagan

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  • From: Scotland
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Re: The Incredibles.

Down in Front wrote:

BTW, there's a lovely little documentary called The Pixar Story on Netflix Instant right now. Not quite as good or as interesting as Waking Sleeping Beauty, but...good and interesting nonetheless.

If it's the same one that I have on my Wall E blu ray, then it is good. I haven't seen Waking Sleeping Beauty so I can't comment on it. I want to see it, though.

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  • From: Florida
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Re: The Incredibles.

PAL edition now available; sorry for the delay folks.

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  • Registered: 2010-06-13
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Re: The Incredibles.

Watching the Incredibles is so much fun. One thing I noticed was that the Incredibles was the first pixar film I saw that did not have a over all message directed at kids. Not a bad thing just different. This may not even be true, it was just things in the previous films that I interpreted and perhaps was not meant to, but I do personally think that it was put in there intentionally. If you don't understand what Im saying here I'll try to break it down for you.


Toy Story had a story about making room for another family member in the way kids have to handle a new baby brother/sister. A kid may feel like woody seeing as that they are getting less love and attention as the baby seems to take over there parents life.


Bugs Life was about being different. Telling kids its ok to not be like everyone else, and especially kids with who have a sort of birth deficiency or trait that makes them feel like the odd man out, but like flicks unique mind it is what makes you special.


Toy Story 2 seemed to be making a statement to kids about enjoy being a kid wile it lasts. Woody sees there are perks to giving up the world that he new but would miss the fun. Kids may talk of wanting to be adults faster but being a kid is golden time live and should live it to the fullest.


Monsters inc. had (again what i thought to be) a powerful message about how people treat others before knowing them. The monsters would scare the children and think nothing of it. In the same way that a group of kids may pick on a kid who was some how different from them. However when sully got to know boo he felt awful when he scared her and then did every thing he could to help her get home. This movie was also the first that seemed to be able to aim at kids and adults, seeing as in many adults are prejudiced, also one reason sully is so big and tuff.


Nemo also had dual sort of aim to kids and adults but this time 2 stories to tell. Kids need to learn that their parents don't let them do some things because they love them and don't want to see them get hurt. Wile parents need to learn that the point of being a parent is to raise your kid to be able to function on their own and be able to let go.


Then came the Incredibles, which is the first pixar film i saw in theaters and the first pixar film i saw that I didn't feel had that recurring theme of a message to kids. Again not bad (in fact somewhat refreshing) but it was the first one i thought was sort of not your typical pixar film.


The point being that despite that typical pixar element missing, as far as i can see most kids (most grown up a bit now) still see  the incredibles as one of Pixar's best films, which means changing the forum and taking a risk can really pay off if you know what your doing.

Last edited by Landporpus (2011-04-18 19:53:22)

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  • Teague
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Re: The Incredibles.

Huh. Cool breakdown, dude.

Teague Chrystie

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  • From: Annapolis, MD
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Re: The Incredibles.

Down in Front wrote:

Is your point that Disney's Beauty and the Beast was aimed at a mainstream adult audience?

I think it was aimed at a family audience, which only includes adults, it's not comprised entirely of them. I can't think of an animated film aimed at a mainstream adult audience that has been what we're roundly calling "successful."

Aside from Avatar.

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  • Teague
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Re: The Incredibles.

There it is.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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  • Registered: 2010-03-13
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Re: The Incredibles.

Interesting that someone pointed out how Edna might have created a suit for Syndrome if he had asked. I believe I heard somewhere that Edna Mode was going to be the villain at some point. And I think Syndrome was going to be the first villain rather than the main one. There is a deleted alternate opening on the DVD where he basically dies in the beginning (it's probably on youtube). It almost works as a prequel as Violet is a baby.

I don't know that Edna would have created a suit for Buddy though. He wasn't a Super and she had the whole "I designed for gods" thing. If she had been the villain, it would have been interesting if she was actually helping Buddy in order to bring the Supers back.

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  • Teague
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Re: The Incredibles.

2013 bump.

I was watching this last night, and god damn is it amazing and all, yeah yeah, but I noticed something.

This isn't actually a perfect movie. Not in the Dorkmanic sense of the word, anyway. There is one thread at the beginning of the movie that isn't actually paid off at the end.

What is Mr. Incredible's problem at the beginning of the movie? It's twofold, obviously, it's partially that he's not much of a family man because he's obsessed with the past, but also - importantly - that Bob can't accept the fact that he has to hide what makes him special. His whole problem stems from the fact that what he needs to do is learn to put the past away and live in the moment. He keeps getting into trouble because he wants to re-live his past.

At the end of the movie, the story and his arc have beautifully brought him into a place where he's a dedicated father and (presumably) understands the importance of family and all that, but he has decidedly not learned to put the past away and hide what makes him special. He's superheroing his ass off. He hasn't learned to hide what makes him special, he's just dragged his family into it with him. That solves one of the two problems, but not both.

Now, obviously the theme of the movie is "you're special and you shouldn't ever try to hide it," but that's simultaneously not what the movie is saying. At the end, not only are The Incredibles are in violation of federal law - which you could say is the movie's way of suggesting sometimes the world won't be accepting of your specialness, but you should be special anyway - but Bob is also telling his son not to be too special at the track meet. He's saying "don't be too special in their faces, hide it and let someone else win."

I know this is a point that could be argued back and forth, and I'd love to hear it, I just thought it was odd that I hadn't seen this argument at all before.

Teague Chrystie

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  • From: Farmington, CT
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Re: The Incredibles.

I think you've got it backwards. Bob doesn't have to learn to hide what makes him special, he has to teach everyone else not to. The movie agrees with Bob, so it's not actually part of his arc.

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  • Teague
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Re: The Incredibles.

I agree that that's the theme, but it doesn't seem to be well supported by the events. (Namely, if the idea was for him to teach everyone that being special is okay, why does he tell Dash to slow down and why are his activities at the end of the movie still illegal?)

I'm almost certain I'm wrong about this, but I'm still not quite convinced it's water-tight.

Teague Chrystie

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Re: The Incredibles.

Because it's ok to be special, but you shouldn't be a dick about it wink

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  • Trey
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Re: The Incredibles.

I'd say the message is about the compromise -  it was wrong for Bob to hide his abilities and to ask his family to do it.   Or you could say it was wrong of the world to ask them to do it. Whichever.   

But at the same time, Bob (in particular) needs to learn humility.  He genuinely does want to help people, but he also misses the adoration it brought him - evidenced by the home office full of testimonials of how great he was.    As his nemesis, Syndrome represents the far end of that spectrum.  He doesn't want to do good at all - he actually creates mayhem, then solves it in order to get the recognition he craves. 

For that matter - Syndrome became a supervillain because Bob wouldn't acknowledge him - or allow him to share even a little bit of Bob's star status.   

So Bob's pride is the real problem that needs to be solved.

In the end, Bob (and the family) have found the middle ground - Dash is allowed to win races, just not by ridiculous margins that will embarrass the other kids.   And the family still fights evil even though they'll never be publicly acknowledged for it.    Which means they're doing it for the right reasons.

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  • From: Red Deer, AB
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Re: The Incredibles.

Teague wrote:

His whole problem stems from the fact that what he needs to do is learn to put the past away and live in the moment. He keeps getting into trouble because he wants to re-live his past.

Teague wrote:

...but he has decidedly not learned to put the past away and hide what makes him special.

This is a question wrongly put I think. Bob never needs to hide what makes him special, he just needs to finally come to terms with the fact that the guy he used to be can't live in this world anymore. And his refusal of that belief is what causes all his problems.

Teague wrote:

...why does he tell Dash to slow down...

You just answered you're own question.

By the end of the movie Bob has come to terms with what it means to be a superhero living in the modern world, he's learned to live in the present (They as a family had to redefine it for the world a little bit along the way*, but that's just a factor of them finally coming together as a family). He's perfectly okay being the regular old dad at a race cheering from the bleachers with his family.

*The world changed when they saved it from Syndrome, the world no longer looks down on them with as much disdain as they used to. So he doesn't NEED to hide completely anymore. He can be the dad guy with his family in public and also the superhero when he needs to be. The difference is that he's being the superhero guy WITH his family, not trying to recreate the lone ranger glory days of yore.

Last edited by BigDamnArtist (2013-01-27 23:49:31)

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  • From: State of Idaho
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Re: The Incredibles.

I think I see what Teague is saying though I may mess it up too. The movie is saying that being special is good. We see Violet accept it and become more self-confident. On the other hand, they are still telling Dash to hide, or reduce his abilities.
Maybe the message is mixed because we never society accept the supers the way that they were before the whole lawsuit thing happen at the beginning. There is a personal turn around for Bob, for Violet, to some extent Helen. But, Bob still hides some, so maybe its a old over from the years of hiding?

I'm not sure. I like the whole becoming a better family man, but the actual resolution is mixed at best...

Thanks, Teague for giving me things to think about

holden

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Re: The Incredibles.

I've spent a lot of time with this movie the past week (working on this setups and payoffs thingy) and even though this discussion is over a year old, I'd like to weigh in.

Bob's arc is that he thinks he'll be really good at family life, but because he's "Superman" and wants to protect his family he can't let them in emotionally and thus, is not the best father and husband he can be.

He's disconnected from his family and they suffer as a unit because of it. That's is his flaw.

Through the course of the movie he realizes that "doing it all" (having a great career, being rich and physically fit) isn't an adequate replacement for being honest and engaged with his family. Even if it means that he needs to depend on them a bit, too, in return. He needs to fight with them, not without them. Excluding them is different from protecting them. Bob's "specialness" is not his problem. Nor is his focus on the past; that's just a symptom of his real problem: his inability to be emotionally present with them.

His arc is summed up in two different moments. The first comes near the beginning, in his first scene with his family where they're all having dinner together. Bob isn't paying attention to them; he's just reading the paper; he starts to get a little emotionally engaged when he hears about his son's issue at school, but the conversation doesn't go well and he leaves the room altogether. Chaos ensues and Helen calls from the dining room, "Bob, it's time to engage!"

At the end, as Bob is starting to learn to fight with his family, but he still wants to protect them and tells Helen and the kids to stay back so he can go and fight the robot. Helen protests, but Bob is adamant, "I can't lose you again! ... I'm not ... not strong enough." Helen finally sees why it's been so hard for Bob to be involved in their family life and reassures him, "If we work together, you won't have to be." Bob says, "I don't know what'll happen." Having finally been honest with her, he is able to bring his family into his battle with the world/robot and they fight and live as one unit.

Incidentally, right at the end of that conversation, Helen jokes "We're super heroes. What could happen?" which pays off a joke set up at their wedding, when a young, very confident Bob also said, "We're super heroes; what could happen?"

So ... sorry?? This is a perfect movie.

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