Re: #53 - Film Criticism

Zarban wrote:

But it's not the exact same thing. That's the joke. Confused Matthew isn't a film.

I didn't make the initial comparison, and I appreciate that you were being glib. However, if you're gonna make the statement that he represents the worst of film criticism, then you should have a good idea of what the guy does.

Zarban wrote:

My problem with Confused Matthew is that he gets really angry at movies that are doing their best to entertain him.

But these movies have failed to entertain him, and he doesn't have to give them a "C" for effort, especially if he feels like they didn't actually put in the effort. Confused Matthew has a pretty narrow focus on story, plot, and characters, and a movie has to tick all of those boxes for him to consider it successful. Personally, I think he gives too much credit/blame to writers and not enough to directors, but that's neither here nor there. The real question, when it comes to the quality of his film criticism, is whether or not you think he has a point. There are times when I think he goes a bit overboard, but rarely would I say he's completely missed the mark.

My own problem with Confused Matthew is that he's way too abrasive It's okay to have a minority opinion, but no one's going to listen to you if you annoy them before you get to your actual point, which seems to be exactly what happened here. If they were gonna mention him on the podcast, I wish the guys had called him out for being too obnoxious to listen to rather than claiming that there was no inherent quality to stuff that they hadn't even bothered to listen to.

Zarban wrote:

The Last Samurai isn't a hack job. It just doesn't quite work. Wagging his finger at the writer and saying, "Too obvious, John. Too fucking obvious." isn't film criticism. It's something else.

This makes me think that you haven't watched much of Confused Matthew, either. Not even the review you're quoting. His The Last Samurai review is 30+ minutes long and goes into great detail about specific problems he has with the writing and direction. He even suggests simple changes that he feels would've improved the story and characterization. The "Too fucking obvious, John" line is a one-off comment he makes very early on in the review. His bigger point, which he also clearly states early on in the review, is that many of the story elements are overblown and contradictory and that they fail to support the characterization and plot.

fireproof78 wrote:

Your insights are probably more valuable than you realize. I am a curious sort and try to understand why people do (or do not) enjoy certain films. Avengers is a mixed bag because it is regarded as a tent pole film for the popcorn viewer but tries to do more with the characters. I think the character development can be missed if Captain America and Thor are not viewed first.

I don't mind sharing my thoughts. Posting this here doesn't seem quite right, but I'd feel like I was derailing an interesting discussion on gender politics if I post if where it belongs.  hmm

Anyway, I can't argue against your point, mostly 'cause I have no intention of ever watching those movies and then re-watching The Avengers in order to find out. And I think that's this movie's biggest problem. I totally get that it's a sequel and there's a lot of backstory I may not know. But this movie doesn't make me want to go back and find out what I'm missing. It's hard for me to understand why this movie so great if it can't stand on it's own in any way and is entirely reliant on a bunch of other no-so-great films to establish all of its most compelling elements. If I was confused but engaged, then I would reconsider Thor, Iron Man 2, and Captain America for the sake of The Avengers, but The Avengers itself didn't inspire me to do that.

fireproof78 wrote:

I know I have mentioned my reluctance to be a film critic but there is one other aspect of myself that can come across a bit, well, pretentious and dickish...I have studied psychology for about 10 years now and so think about characters and their motivation and influence in the world more than anything else. So I kind of get inside many character's heads easier than a lot of other people do and sometimes I sound like a complete jerk for saying that a character works for me when others don't.

I quite often get accused of being nit-picky, but I also like anime, which in many circles means I have zero credibility. The most important thing for me is knowing what a film is trying to say, and it needs to say it effectively without dicking around too much. Characters are important, too, but I don't worry about whether or not I like them unless their actions don't make sense in the context of the story and theme.

The reason I couldn't get interested in The Avengers is because it isn't about anything. Stuff happens, characters do stuff, and so more stuff happens, but at its core, this movie feels hollow.

It being called "The Avengers," you'd think it would be about the team, but it isn't. Not really. I mean, it starts off with a bunch of individual superheroes bickering with each other for no reason, and then later on, they form a team. Not for any actually compelling reason, however, they just get tricked into it. At the end, they go their separate ways, but I guess they'll get back together in the team again at some point, 'cause the next movie has already been green-lit. Sure there are some good character moments in the mix, but overall I have no idea why I'm supposed to care.

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Re: #53 - Film Criticism

When someone acts like an asshole in the first 10 minutes, I'm not going to listen to the rest of his opinion.

If you like listening to him, that's your business. Don't act like everybody really needs to listen to this guy's ignorant rants. Nobody owes Matthew a hearing out.

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: #53 - Film Criticism

Zarban wrote:

When someone acts like an asshole in the first 10 minutes, I'm not going to listen to the rest of his opinion.

If you like listening to him, that's your business. Don't act like everybody really needs to listen to this guy's ignorant rants. Nobody owes Matthew a hearing out.

I'm afraid CM's style is being an ass at the movie's expense. And hey, that's not everyone's thing.

Also, there are several movies that are critical failures that are doing their best to entertain the audience. I am usually all for supporting the film company who makes a movie because that is a lot of work that the industry didn't have to put forward in order to entertain the audience. But, if it doesn't entertain a person, who's problem is that? Is it the viewer or the studio?

God loves you!

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Re: #53 - Film Criticism

In the interest of fairness, as well as an attempt to educate, here's a link to Confused Matthew's review for The Dark Knight:

http://www.confusedmatthew.com/The-Dark … Review.php

I link to this because the other CM material I've shared in the past has been more on the obnoxious/angry/loud side. I wanted to balance things out with one of his quieter and well thought out reviews. CM lists The Dark Knight in his "Favorite Movies" section, so this particular review is calm, insightful and extensively considerate. It's very accessible and "user friendly".

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Re: #53 - Film Criticism

Zarban wrote:

Don't act like everybody really needs to listen to this guy's ignorant rants. Nobody owes Matthew a hearing out.

I'm not doing anything of the sort, and I've been very precise with my language in an effort to avoid misunderstanding.
But apparently that's not working out, and I'm not really interested in getting into an argument on his behalf.

fireproof78 wrote:

I am usually all for supporting the film company who makes a movie because that is a lot of work that the industry didn't have to put forward in order to entertain the audience. But, if it doesn't entertain a person, who's problem is that? Is it the viewer or the studio?

I wouldn't say it's a problem. It's not a possible to please everyone with any one movie, so it's in a studio's interests to diversify the films they offer in order to maximize their potential audience. The money I didn't spend on The Amazing Spiderman bought me a ticket to Skyfall instead. And everyone's happy.

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Re: #53 - Film Criticism

Invid - nice Disorderlies reference.  Probably the Fat Boys finest film work to date.

also, this ep doesn't actually show up in the itunes feed for me.  not sure if that happened with anyone else.

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Re: #53 - Film Criticism

johnpavlich wrote:

I link to this because the other CM material I've shared in the past has been more on the obnoxious/angry/loud side. I wanted to balance things out with one of his quieter and well thought out reviews.

Oh, Rihanna. You have got to quit that man.

Again, my name is Brian Finifter. I live at Brian's house in the city, county, and state of Los Angeles.

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: #53 - Film Criticism

That isn't particularly apt, since A) Confused Matthew has never offended me personally, mainly because he doesn't even know who I am and B) Similar to his review for The Dark Knight, CM has many more reviews like it for other films, wherein he takes something he loves and makes a strong case for it. It's when he's just being a narrow-minded, Negative Nancy that I tend to scowl at and shake my head (or in terms of his review for The Avengers, laugh hysterically at and shake my head).

So, what you're basically telling me is, if Confused Matthew reviews upset me and I disagree with them sometimes, I should stop paying attention to him and his hate speech?

Well, you called Felicia Day ugly in so many words (lots of people look like Monkeys, and for good reason!). Does my strong opposition to your opinion of her dictate we can't "hang out" anymore? smile

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Re: #53 - Film Criticism

johnpavlich wrote:

Well, you called Felicia Day ugly in so many words (lots of people look like Monkeys, and for good reason!). Does my strong opposition to your opinion of her dictate we can't "hang out" anymore? smile

Okay, I admit, there are some pictures where Felicia Day looks cute.

http://www.wired.com/geekmom/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/IMG_4077a_small.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/10/article-2245683-166F99E3000005DC-573_634x462.jpg

Look at her little face there. It's adorable.

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: #53 - Film Criticism

I don't know whether to knock you out or buy you a beer. hmm

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: #53 - Film Criticism

BigDamnArtist wrote:

I don't know whether to knock you out or buy you a beer. hmm

Maybe both?
*the author of this post would like it recorded that he does not condone violence...or drinking*

God loves you!

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Re: #53 - Film Criticism

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdgp6nPFEU1rxuv7ko1_500.gif

...interesting thought.

Last edited by BigDamnArtist (2013-02-20 04:27:51)

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: #53 - Film Criticism

This week, Zarban is played by Confused Matthew.

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Re: #53 - Film Criticism

Shackman wrote:

Invid - nice Disorderlies reference.  Probably the Fat Boys finest film work to date.

also, this ep doesn't actually show up in the itunes feed for me.  not sure if that happened with anyone else.

As has happened a few times, the date is wrong. Look down below the first episode, and you should see it there.

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: #53 - Film Criticism

Hm, the reason i read this thread is that I came across this site only because of Confused Matthew mentioning you folks.

I did a little bit of studying arts and media at my crap university, and the funny thing I got out of that is, that if you want to include any artefact of art (also of the realm of moving pictures) into any analysis you almost always have to narrow down your focus to the aspects you examine, because you never have enough room to compare every single aspect of the item. This is way easier and totally legit in an approach, as long as you indicate it properly.

To me CM makes it clear enough where his point of interest is situated, and his reviews primarily were triggered by a feeling of personal disappointment, because a movie failed to work in the aspects that are most dear to him. As is made clear enough in his 2001 commentary, he will not even try to appreciate other virtues of a movie, that fails to accomodate him in the aspects he seeks in movies.

For me, as the rules are clearly stated, i wont bother consulting him on any movie i know he will not appreciate in the first place. But he has a place in my bookmarks for his thoughts on movies I think are in his playing field.

And as it is the internet after all, I`m fine with people rejecting things I personally hold dear, even if they are not the least bit polite about it.

The thing is, before I bumped into friends in your head, I had to be cherry picking in every format I encountered, because noone really offered me the holelistic approach I was searching for. There is red letter media, and I still watch almost everything they put online, but what makes you guys special in my eyes is the constructive attitude you put into your crap-movie-experience, the speculations around what would have made this bad movie better.

To go back to the start of my post: surprise, there are people out there, who don´t need to narrow down their focus so much they wear blinders on what might be outside of it smile
Though to be fair you have both the advantages of bouncing opinions of each other and the longer format. I know it probably isn´t going to happen, but I think I really would enjoy CM as a guest on some episode wink

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Re: #53 - Film Criticism

Syl wrote:

To me CM makes it clear enough where his point of interest is situated, and his reviews primarily were triggered by a feeling of personal disappointment, because a movie failed to work in the aspects that are most dear to him. As is made clear enough in his 2001 commentary, he will not even try to appreciate other virtues of a movie, that fails to accomodate him in the aspects he seeks in movies.

For me, as the rules are clearly stated, i wont bother consulting him on any movie i know he will not appreciate in the first place. But he has a place in my bookmarks for his thoughts on movies I think are in his playing field.

Yes, I think that's the attitude one has to have when it comes to figures like CM. I'd even say CM represents a particular genre of criticism—I'll label it "Manic Provocateurism" for conversation's sake. Whatever one calls it, it's a very specific approach to discussing movies. (Actually, his tone is that of someone who expects that his opinion should end the discussion rather than contribute to it, but hey, we could say the same about a lot of critics. Pauline Kael.)

I think part of the reason someone like CM drives people crazy is they don't fully appreciate what you described—that CM comes at movies in a fundamentally different way. When I watch his reviews, I feel like our differences of opinion amount to something more like a language barrier. If I'm speaking Farsi and he's speaking Klingon, his utterances will make no sense to me, and vice-versa—but, both of us would think "Well, clearly all that gibberish makes sense to him... too bad we'll never be able to have a real conversation." 

CM's approach simply seems to ask different questions and has next-to-zero tolerance for filmmakers who make choices other than the ones he would have made. Which I'm fine with, provided there's some curiosity to go with it. But as you indicate, he doesn't really try to appreciate something that doesn't conform to his personal predilections. CM is one of those guys that seems to love his own taste more than he loves movies. Again, I concede that this describes a lot of big-name critics as well.

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Re: #53 - Film Criticism

I've never heard of Confused Matthew before this intermission and I must say, going by a small sampling, he seems very concise in his critique and frank about his premises for it, not just if he liked it or not but making clear why. It's pointless to discuss taste, so like/don't like shouldn't really enter the conversation in "true criticism", for lack of a better term. Liking something doesn't mean it's good, and the inverse is also true. The qualifier for good here I guess would be structurally sound and delivering on its premise. I like Spirited Away, but I honestly have no idea if it's a good movie, I can't really say what's going on in that story, but i'm not sure he can either, and I'm not sure his premise is right, but at least he presents it for others to evaluate, and that's an honest case.

I seem to share his sentiments on both The Avengers and No Country For Old Men, and looking at his list, probably on a lot of other movies too. There is little more infuriating than everyone hystericaly proclaiming something as brilliant when it's clearly not, in one's own opinion, so now I know where to go for a little validation wink  And it's always healthy to be succinctly challenged so i guess it's a win win.

Though he really undermines his own case with heavy use of explitives, and I guess that's what rubbing people the wrong way, which i totally see, it's really obnoxious at times (ref. No Country For Old Men).

Rob wrote:
CM is one of those guys that seems to love his own taste more than he loves movies.

Doesn't everyone?

The Low Frequenter

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Re: #53 - Film Criticism

Snowflake wrote:

Rob wrote:
CM is one of those guys that seems to love his own taste more than he loves movies.

Doesn't everyone?

Oh sure, there's absolutely a sense in which that's true. Like I say, that describes some of the best critics. It's a fine line, I guess, between loving movies and loving what it is that you, personally, love about movies.

I was being more sarcastic than clear. What I was driving at was, just as each person has different taste in movies, each person also has a different taste in movie criticism. We all value, respect, and are entertained by different things in criticism. Thus I don't begrudge anyone for liking CM, just as I don't begrudge someone who thinks "27 Dresses" is the best movie of all time. There's plenty of critics I think are great who are strident, aggressive, and mostly unwilling to appreciate a film that ventures slightly outside the boundaries of their own narrow aesthetic predilections. What I tend to value in a critic—and this is not to say someone else must value this; it's merely what I value—is curiosity and a willingness to be affected, altered, by a movie in a way that's maybe different from the way he normally likes to be affected by a movie. By curiosity, I just mean that after saying "I didn't like this choice made by X-filmmaker because it does not do this" the critic tries to understand the choice and why it was made, what it's trying to achieve—even if that artistic goal is one he finds objectionable. Since that's my taste, I would enjoy CM's work more if I detected more of these elements in it. That's all I mean. His rhetorical style—the swearing, the open contempt for choices that don't meet his standards—doesn't bother me in the least. Swearing and contemptuousness are what he and I have in common.

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Re: #53 - Film Criticism

Yup, I figured I got the spirit of what you meant and I agree with you in everything above, I just thought your wording was interesting and was simply curious about your answer.

He's definitely got his own particular preferences and preconceptions, but he seems to be quite upfront about those so it's easy for anyone watching to measure the value of his critique for themselves by how their tastes and understanding correlates with his, and that's very helpful, I like that. His Spirited Away review is a good example, as he acknowledges upfront that the movie is not his kind of thing, and also states the premise he lays as a foundation for picking the movie apart. Incidentally I don't care too much for anime either, generally, but I like this particular film and I don't necessarily agree with his premise. His transparency makes me able to make an informed opinion about his opinion so to speak. I think that's a defining quality of constructive criticism. Of course he may show a lack of another defining quality, which would be getting the actual premise of the movie right, and not what he assumes it is or thinks it should be.

And as you mention, his is a particular branch of criticism, and some of his more acerbic tendencies could be attributed to as for effect. His format reminds me somewhat of Yahtzee's Zero Puntuation reviews, except those are funnier wink

In the end though, I was expecting a rambling rant and what i got was a wellspoken, sans swears, and concise opinion. So I was pleasantly surprised.

The Low Frequenter

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Re: #53 - Film Criticism

I can appreciate that example because Anime movies are one of my own blind spots. I find that the people who enjoy them seem to "get" something I'm not getting, as if they have a set of categories I don't have, probably because I'm just woefully uneducated about the artform.

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Re: #53 - Film Criticism

So, I recently revisited this episode as I mowed my lawn and really am amazed at the observations regarding how the art of critiquing culture and being more of a film critic has fallen by the wayside. It often is interesting to me, and a recent chat with bullet3 and BDA was confirmed by this episode, namely that it will take a couple of generations but we will see a resurgence of culture and elitism. I honestly think that the current youngsters are less likely to tolerate 'splosions, and the action flick cinema for long. I really don't know why I think so, but having worked with teenagers for a little bit, I certainly see a little more of a gleam that might shape itself in to a more thoughtful consideration of art and media before long. So, despite the current complaints of "movies suck!" (exaggeration for the sake of a point-its a joke, we're walking, we're walking...) I believe it will get better.

Also, I decided to start reading about film criticism. Not because I want to become a critic, but because I really don't want to sit there and thinking that critics are blowing smoke just because of X, Y or Z in film critic school. I want to be more informed beyond my usual character examination that I normally do.

So, hey, look, Friends in Your Head is expanding my horizons wink

God loves you!

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