Re: Thread for being deeply, non-fatalistically worn out about something

Teague wrote:

1) I do think this argument could be effectively made in less time than I took to make it — especially with editing.

2) So, sorry.

3) Hey, I told you the previous ramblings were two hours long!

4) I'm pretty sure "ugh, I really need to plan / edit this better" was the reason it kept never-getting-done before.

It's all good! I just enjoyed hearing you talk about stuff again. FWIW, I also tend to procrastinate a lot for a similar reason ("I could do this better").

8) If y'all have thoughts that'll help me develop this bullshit further, definitely share them. Stuff that seems totally superfluous to the argument (in which case I failed to clarify why I think it's relevant, which... almost certainly happened repeatedly, because improvised argument), or stuff that seems especially convincing, etc.. I'm quite happy, but not totally surprised, that folks seem to agree with the general givens I'm talkin' about; what I was mostly curious about was how far from the pack I've strayed in terms of the specifics.

Amidst a lot of great ideas, I think the biggest thing to improve the flow of the argument is to organize some of the points in a more natural manner. I think most of the stuff you said works. But I bet if you went back and rewatched the video, you could probably start to realize what points you could re-shuffle to different locations, or which points seemed a little unrelated to what you were previously saying. I think it could help to try and boil your point down to a single thesis and then make sure everything you're saying is helping to develop that thesis.

One point that I sort of got, but seemed a bit disconnected was the idea that a group of people getting together and doing the same thing leads to that feeling of satisfaction. I think you were trying to give an example of another phenomenon that could lead to the dopaminergic high you had alluded to earlier. Even though I understood it, it felt a little unrelated to the idea of intentional art optimization because it's more of a phenomenon that we observe.

One point I really liked was the analogy between candy vs. a full meal (I forget which specific food you mentioned). But I instantly understood that as the difference between immediate (but cheap) satisfaction vs. somewhat delayed (but higher quality) satisfaction. I also really liked the dopamine analogy and how more is required to achieve the same "high". Both of these really paint a clear picture as to what companies are trying to achieve with their optimization techniques.

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Re: Thread for being deeply, non-fatalistically worn out about something

So, the point Teague is making that while once all music came from the radio, all film was found in the cinema we now have more and more sources of entertainment meaning the audience to support a $200 Million is getting smaller and smaller.

Perhaps I should start a new thread for being unfoundedly optimistic but the thing Teague somewhat overlooked was what he described as the "static" that is taking up the space radio once dominated, The Andy Weir's who published directly to kindle, The Jonathon Coulton's who built an audience through releasing music as MP3's directly online.

The movie is no more doomed than the play was. The cinema might be, however I think it could have a few years left in it.  Film Reviewer Mark Kermode was asked on his radio show if he thought there had been a decline in quality movies and I was somewhat surprised to hear him say no. He argues that while the multiplexes showed Superhero movies constantly, the number of films getting smaller releases was up even if many didn't break through into the mainstream.

So , I don't think Movies are dying, I think they've died. Movies have become TV, TV has become novels, Novels have become radio (Audible and all that)

Fifteen years ago people declared the television drama dead and we would only have reality shows forever more. Now there is more dramas than ever and each one on it's own streaming service (Which is a whole other discussion)

Extended Edition - 141 Doctor Who, Medicine Woman
VFX Reel | Twitter | IMDB | Blog

Re: Thread for being deeply, non-fatalistically worn out about something

I'm saying blockbusters are dying. $200M budgets. Tentpoles.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Thread for being deeply, non-fatalistically worn out about something

Yeah well, you said that 5 years ago! tongue

Last edited by Faldor (2018-10-29 12:53:57)

Extended Edition - 141 Doctor Who, Medicine Woman
VFX Reel | Twitter | IMDB | Blog

Re: Thread for being deeply, non-fatalistically worn out about something

*shrug*

Do you think blockbusters are better now?

If not, it would seem we're still on that trend, yeah.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Thread for being deeply, non-fatalistically worn out about something

What I got out of Teague's point was deeply optimistic to me. Watered-down blockbusters are about to crumble. Couldn't make me happier.

Last edited by Saniss (2018-10-29 12:34:32)

Sébastien Fraud
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"We're gonna build a great green screen, and make the traditional matte painters pay for it"
Saniss for President 2016 - "Make VFX great again"

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Re: Thread for being deeply, non-fatalistically worn out about something

Abbie wrote:

Oh hey, I'm back, about streaming this time because Filmstruck is being shut down by Warner.

Really sad to hear this. It isn't even available in Canada but I've been following the Filmstruck Twitter just to hear about old classics and try to look some of them up in my university library.

As for Teague's thing, I've just rushed to listen to it since I'm on my way out the door to go to work but a) excellent point made in a rambling sort of way, dude b) we're definitely seeing this in other industries, like videogames as Boter said and c) BDA's thing about algorithms:

BigDamnArtist wrote:

it's also getting people to interact in comments, motivating people enough to actually subscribe, getting people to hit the bell so they can be notified when a video goes live because maybe sometimes it's hard to know if youtube is actually sending out the notifications to subscription boxes, and mostly producing enough content at a fast enough rate that the algorithm doesn't forget about them but still producing high enough quality that they don't lose the audience.

I am all for the death of the blockbuster - I think they've certainly worn out their welcome - but the optimization problem also exists because of the YouTube and Netflix's algorithms and like...what do you do as an artist?

Thought: we say this about people not wanting to change laws for billionaires because someday they want to be a billionaire, but for creators, do people still cling to old systems because they want to write the blockbuster and make a billion dollars? Or are we all getting on board with the patron system?

If it's not about musicals, I probably don't know what I'm talking about.

Re: Thread for being deeply, non-fatalistically worn out about something

LatinAlice wrote:

but for creators, do people still cling to old systems because they want to write the blockbuster and make a billion dollars? Or are we all getting on board with the patron system?

The billionaire/old system thing is still very much alive, I /still/ have filmmaker friends that desperately feel the need to move to LA to make it big as a director.... and I'm like, dude's no.... the opposite of that, other way guys. But eh, what are you gonna do.

I think there's still a pretty big divide between the "filmmakers" I know and the "content creators" I know, the filmmakers still think of everything in terms of government grants and corporate funding, where as that just /doesn't/ exist for online creators, even ones working in narrative formats, and the most filmmakers will stoop to like, Kickstarter in terms of public funding, but there's still this weird, uppityness about "Filmmakers vs Content Creators" from the "Filmmakers" I know that's just bullshit, and becoming more bullshit every year.

So anyways, a lot of online creators are adopting the Patron system because it's their only option right now. Youtube CLEARLY gives zero shits about creators so relying on them is tantamount to suicide, but the only other option, really, is do what Roosterteeth did and diversify your revenue streams 10 years ago so you have a solid base now, or Patreon.

It definitely works for some, but again, that just adds a whole other thing where now you have to convince people to give you money directly, and you have to have to good enough perk rewards to make it worth it for the 99% of people that aren't going to be convinced to give you money just out of their charitable willingness to support an artist. And Patreon is basically useless for finding new audience, so you're still relying on the algorithm to get new audience to hopefully funnel the 2% of them or whatever the latest stat is, to Patreon.

As for the actual question.... I think the online creator community in general is getting more on board with the Patron model, Youtube just launched a Twitch subscription like service so you can subscribe to channels you want to support for like 5 bucks a month. But even then the people relying on that are mid level creators, the guys that are already big have sponsorships out the wazoo and diversified income from merch and other platforms, so they're fine; and the really little guys don't have a big enough audience to actually make enough from Patrons to even remotely support themselves, so it's just the people that have a large enough audience to drive that 2% to Patreon and that's enough to make it a part-time or full-time job, what have you, and even then, by the time you reach that level, you've probably started off-setting that with sponsorships anyways.

AND, the really fun part is that a lot of these creators are solo creators still trying to do what they want to do and make what they want to make, while still balancing the algorithm and the perks and the and the and the and the.... so for the most part (Unless they're just the shitty money hungry fame whore creators*) it's still this crazy blend of independent actual artists visions caught up in this clusterfuck of trying to survive.

*I have a theory these people are still what the majority of people think of when they hear Youtuber. Which is a shame.

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: Thread for being deeply, non-fatalistically worn out about something

Okay so this might not be the best place for it but this really grinds my gears...

Roundabouts Are Lethal

As a pedestrian, trying to cross the road at a roundabout is a scary thing. Especially when 99% of drivers don't indicate correctly. The law for drivers, as in the correct example below, is to enter the roundabout, and if you are not directly turning left into the first exit, you must indciate right until you are passed the last exit before the one you want, then, indicate left into that exit. This lets other drivers and pedestrians trying to cross the road, your intentions. But most drivers indicate right and don't bother with indicating left into their exit. This means, a pedestrian, wanting to cross the road and waiting for an opening, sees that you do not want to turn into the exit and it's safe to cross. Proceeding to turn into that exit having not indicated leaves an unsuspecting pedestrian in the middle of the road with an oncoming car. This shit happens to me daily. There is a dual carriage way I have to navigate so usually I end up with not one but two lanes of drivers failing to indicate correctly making the crossing treachurous. DRIVERS, FIX YOUR SHIT!

(My apologies to any Americans who probably won't know the pains of a roundabout)

https://image.ibb.co/i44ryV/Arg.jpg

(Also, my apologies on the graphic, I didn't have time to build it to scale or paint it wink)

Hurroo

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Re: Thread for being deeply, non-fatalistically worn out about something

No, I'm right there with you. I know that roundabouts are more efficient, and I also know they're dangerous as fuck because nobody continues to be a rational person as they drive into a roundabout.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Thread for being deeply, non-fatalistically worn out about something

Ugh. My hometown went from zero roundabouts to like, IDK even know, I think there's like 6 of the fuckers in town now, in like 3 years. For some reason the city planning office just got a massive hard-on for roundabouts a few years ago and there's been some massive construction work being done around the city for the past couple years, so they've just been shoving them everywhere they can. One of them (the largest, of course) is a 3 lane roundabout IMMEDIATELY after the off ramp from the highway, immediately turns off into another roundabout on one of the exits, and is a major thorough fair for 3 different industrial areas. And HOLY SHIT does everyone hate them.

It doesn't help that, as per standard Red Deer construction procedure, the intersections are done exactly enough to be functional and then basically abandoned. No signs, no crosswalk markings, no directions, nada. In a city that has had exactly one roundabout, in it's hundred and some year history, for all of like a decade or something. Oh yeah, it's going about as well as you'd imagine.

To be fair, it's only slightly worse than the little shitstain nothing of a town out in the middle of nowhere that decided to replace every single intersection on it's main drag with one lane roundabouts. Literally all they did is take their 4 way stops add a barely visible, barely raised, circle in the middle of it and called it a roundabout. So you have this 3 block long strip with 8 different roundabouts one after the other for absolutely no reason, it'd be hilarious if it wasn't so flipping annoying.

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: Thread for being deeply, non-fatalistically worn out about something

.....
I like roundabouts...
.....

Witness me!

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Re: Thread for being deeply, non-fatalistically worn out about something

BigDamnArtist wrote:

My hometown went from zero roundabouts to like, IDK even know, I think there's like 6 of the fuckers in town now, in like 3 years. For some reason the city planning office just got a massive hard-on for roundabouts a few years ago and there's been some massive construction work being done around the city for the past couple years, so they've just been shoving them everywhere they can.

I feel you. I used to live in Carmel Indiana.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Thread for being deeply, non-fatalistically worn out about something

Writhyn wrote:

.....
I like roundabouts...
.....

Oh don't get me wrong /I/ like roundabouts (usually), but in a city of people used to straight lines, red light stop, green light go, and where turning an awkward 4 way intersection on a main thorough fair into a T intersection maintaining the continuity of the street and simplifying the intersection was cause for public outcry and years of bitching... I am utterly terrified for my life every time I have to use one, because no one on the road over 30 knows how the things are supposed to work.

And Teague, that's roooooough. That main intersection/overpass they have profiled on their website looks like a decorative shibari knot. I'm sure it works great once you know how to use it, but man, that's just asking for trouble.

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: Thread for being deeply, non-fatalistically worn out about something

(fwiw, I share the feelings expressed in BDA's top paragraph)

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Thread for being deeply, non-fatalistically worn out about something

I like single-line roundabouts and two-lane roundabouts where the lanes shift each exit so if you're getting off at the third rather than first exit, start at the inside and that lane later becomes the outside lane. Roundabouts with an inside lane just sorta chilling there wig me out.

Boter, formerly of TF.N as Boter and DarthArjuna. I like making movies and playing games, in one order or another.

Re: Thread for being deeply, non-fatalistically worn out about something

These are all valid points/concerns, but not even an off handed comment about Big Ben or Parliament?

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Re: Thread for being deeply, non-fatalistically worn out about something

I mean, if we want to talk about the English, they built this monstrosity:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Co-MgQNWEAA_DXz.jpg:large

I heard you like roundabouts, so we put roundabouts in your roundabout so go round while you go round.

"ShadowDuelist is a god."
        -Teague Chrystie

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Re: Thread for being deeply, non-fatalistically worn out about something

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/540/710/2a6.jpg

...

Sorry. I can't help myself with this meme. You set me up.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Thread for being deeply, non-fatalistically worn out about something

Going back to the youtube algorithm conversation for a sec. Achievement Hunter just did a 5-10 minute segment on their podcast going into why they're making the choices they're making to appease the algorithm and being WAY more open about the business of it than most creators ever would. So if that's something that interests you or you're curious to get a peak behind that particular curtain, it's worth a watch.

Starts around 58:40.

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: Thread for being deeply, non-fatalistically worn out about something

https://youtu.be/FaIJjyvkS1Y?t=253 Adam Neely talking about the future of the music biz.  But essentially TLDR we haven't gotten to the Beatles of Twitch yet but it's coming and that's just the beginning.

Last edited by bgii2000 (2018-11-20 10:50:24)

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Re: Thread for being deeply, non-fatalistically worn out about something

Warning-a bit long and a bit personal. But, you guys are good people and I need to get this off my chest.

I'm over my wife's illness. For those who don't know (and I don't fault any one) my wife has struggled with a chronic illness that was thought to be Irritable Bowel Syndrome. Now, that diagnosis is really one of medical staff shrugging and going "Don't know" and saying she will suffer with it for the rest of her life. And it's painful to watch as her abdomen will cramp up for no reason, often times in reaction to triggers such as certain foods or stress or just lifting wrong. Suffice to say, she cannot work as she has to take random (and long) bathroom breaks some days.

Fast forward from diagnosis to about two months ago. A friend of ours discusses her symptoms and realize it might not be IBS but something called pelvic floor dysfunction, which sounds terrible but is fixable. So, she goes to a specialist (one of 40 in the country and happens to be in our town). He does an exam and determines that it isn't IBS-it's pelvic floor dysfunction, and endometriosis and adenomyosis. The later two are when uterine tissue is in the wrong place and gets super inflamed and causes extreme pain throughout the abdominal cavity.

So, hooray! We finally have an answer. Except, my wife is on Medicaid and Medicaid has basically decided that she is too young for the treatment, which is a hysterectomy-removal of the uterus. So, we have spent the last two months arguing with Medicaid to pay for something that could substantially improve her quality of life.

I'm over it. I'm tired of illness, of being a caregiver, of her being tired all the time and the one possible treatment is being denied.

tl:dr-chronic illness sucks for everyone, not just the patient.

God loves you!

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