Never considered myself a fan of his. However, as his body of work grows, and I hang around these circles, it does seem that as far as established male writers go, Joss has got the biggest place in his heart for a well-developed strong female character or two. Who is doing better for feminism?

Joss Whedon is by no means a feminist icon in anyone's eyes. At least, I certainly hope not. I admire his attitude on the subject, though, as well as his willingness to totally follow through on that attitude in his work. Joss is a great writer, a good director, and his feminist ideals shouldn't be prominent when discussing him.

But why, though?

One of Joss' oft-repeated quips, addressing the question  "why do you keep writing strong female characters," is "because you're still asking me that question." Zarban linked to the source in that YouTube clip. It's a great line.

So.

I guess what I'd ask Allison is simply: what about Joss's position, with regards to female empowerment* in the geekworld understanding, alarms you?

*ugh

As I pointed out half-joking and half-not in the AVATAR commentary, Cameron writes female characters who are strong... as long as there's a stronger man to motivate them.

Sarah Connor had Kyle Reese to teach her how to fight and then the T-800 to teach her how to love; Mary Elizabeth was a strong woman but her whole arc was basically realizing it meant nothing without her man beside her; Neytiri was strong but what she ultimately wanted from Jake was for him to be stronger so he could take care of her (and her people, but first and foremost her); Rose needed Jack, Helen Tasker needed Harry; even in STRANGE DAYS, Angela Bassett was just going to go along to get along until she realized she loved Ralph Fiennes and it drove her to revolution.

It's fair to say the upshot is that the men tend to wind up being saved by the women they have at some point empowered, but the fact remains that the men either hold the power initially and must choose to bestow it upon the women, or the women surrender a part of their power to the men in order to restore balance to their world.*

As with Joss, this is not to say that Cameron's treatment of women is not significantly better than the average, or that he's a bad sexist man and shame on him. It just goes to show how deep the roots are and how far we still have to go.

*ALIENS is the outlier -- Ripley is driven to action by her mommy-instinct, instead, which is I'm not sure is better.

In fairness, /someone/ had to teach her how to make bombs and fight. She was just a civilian when we meet her. I'd say the Terminator franchise gets away pretty clean. But I agree on everything else.

Also, sort of related to the topic of male directors/writers writing "strong female" characters: When Tina Fey accepted the Mark Twain award she was introduced as the "first female recipient" of the award. To which she responded, "I look forward to the day when women's accomplishments don't have to be numbered."

I look forward to the day when semi-real females in fiction written by men aren't adjectived.

Last edited by oTom (2012-11-25 08:16:55)

I don't know if we can get so definitive in our labeling. We don't know anything about his hiring practices on set or stuff like that. And the stories he gets to put on screen have to run an obstacle course of Hollywood studio executives and marketing gurus.

I think it's safe to say that Whedon's audience skews female a lot more than Cameron's does, but to me Cameron gets the nod in terms of presenting more and better women characters who are self-motivated and self-actualizing. You may want to dismiss Rose, but she breaks out of her assigned social role and follows her heart.

Of course, that's just genre. There are a bunch of male and female movie makers who write great roles for women of various ages and who are also self-motivated and self-actualized, AND I DON'T WATCH THEM because they aren't aimed at me. I've never seen Fried Green Tomatoes or Steel Magnolias or Driving Miss Daisy or The Hours or that movie where Angelina Jolie wears a scarf on her head and doesn't kill people.

But just among directors who work in movies where people get shot and cars get blown up, Whedon and Cameron do pretty well, even if Whedon's idea of empowerment is going on a berserk killing spree and Cameron's idea of romance is a man showing a woman how to shoot a gun.

To be fair, Cameron inherited Ripley as a character, and much of what she does isn't just to protect a child. Also, Aliens has Private Vasquez, who (on screen, at least) isn't taught how to be tough or honourable by any man.

How do you think Paul Verhoeven went with his treatment of women in Starship Troopers?

I'm reminded of coming back to Anne McCaffrey's Pern books a few years ago. Written by a woman, lots of strong female characters... but, damn it, it's a running theme that as soon as one of them gets a man they defer to them in all things. Every. Single. Time. It made me want to tear my hair out in the later books when it became obvious it wasn't an isolated character trait. That, and certain things like having everyone from certain Holds being evil just put the books in a very different light.

I am so happy this thread is getting replies.

Zarban's link is a good start to my problems with Joss, but this quote also sums them up nicely.
Girls and women can be strong without being broken first, but Joss rarely writes them this way. Joss has a very specific brand of feminism that consists of thin little girls being broken down and then becoming badasses.  Usually the breaking of his women involves rape or something akin to it. The easiest examples of this are River's "training" by the Alliance and the first Slayer having powers put into her against her will by men.  Let's ignore the romanticized rape-fest that is Dollhouse for now.

I hate to make generalizations, but I think this trend is echoed in a lot of geek culture.  Female characters are thin and broken and falling apart before they start kicking ass.  You guys mention Jim Cameron for strong females*, and he does an alright job on this front. Sarah Connor can't make a bomb without learning how to first, but we see that she's still a pretty capable human before the T-800 comes to town.  Aliens also has some good ladies that didn't go through a trauma in order to be interesting.  But, oh man, do I love that line about writing strong women who need a stronger man.

I would say George RR Martin, who is by no means perfect, is much further along in his portrayal of women. I hate having a male example, but he's the commercial one I can always go to.  In ASOIAF, the women are strong in a lot of different ways. You have Cersei using her sexuality to move up, Sansa using her courtesy as a political tool, Arya the warrior, Catelyn the protective mother, Brienne the soldier, Ygritte the liberated fighter, Daenerys the caretaker and leader, all of the Mormont women, and Ellaria Sand and all of the Sand Snakes. Those are just the big names at the top of a long list.  GRRM presents his female characters as strong in many different ways, and while some of them have gone through a lot to make them strong (Dany, Arya, and Cersei) some of them are using the strength they already had to respond to changing situations (Sansa, Cat, Ygritte, Ellaria).  And none of them are presented as better than the other within the text, despite their differences.

I guess this adds on to what Teague asked. People cite Joss as a great creator of "strong women"* and don't talk about what should come next. Joss wrote it, it's great, and that's the end of the discussion.  Where are my female creators? Why is Gail Simone our only big example in the comic book world?

Outside of the geekworld, Robert and Michelle King are doing great work on The Good Wife.  I actually wrote my Common App essay on the show. I write a lot of essays.

*I second the "ugh", Teague. There is a great article that I cannot currently find that talks about why we should discuss "strong characters, female" not "STRONG FEMALE CHARACTERS".  I'll try and dig it up.

Last edited by Allison (2012-11-25 21:29:30)