Re: #45 - Unpopular Opinions

Hansen wrote:

Anyone looking for a quick runthrough of what the Lost writers knew when (in the context of telling the story of the show's origins) should read this excerpt from Alan Sepinwall's book The Revolution was Televised:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/867 … igins-lost

I'd rather live in ignorance and believe what I said on the previous page big_smile

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Re: #45 - Unpopular Opinions

There was once a compilation video showing all the unanswered questions and dropped subplots of Lost, and it goes on for more than 4 minutes (it's fast).
http://www.collegehumor.com/video/60999 … -questions

Way too many for them to have any sort of plan in place.

Personally I stopped watching Lost after season 3 I think it was when it became clear that the writers were gleefully just stringing us along, when all the characters were holding the idiot ball, and when Locke throws a knife into a complete stranger's back and kills her, just a couple of episodes after we spent an entire episode showing him unable to kill a man he really fucking hated...

Last edited by redxavier (2012-11-29 10:19:23)

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. - Carl Sagan

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Re: #45 - Unpopular Opinions

Here we go, Lost spoilers ahoy:

I know I'm taking a 'funny' video too seriously here, but that video is primarily made up of questions that either:

- Are actually answered. (Examples: Everything involving the lockdown and pallet drop. How did the monster get into Jacob's cabin? Who is it Jacob says "are coming"" at the end of season 5? What's up with polar bears? Why did the Others want Walt)

OR

- Aren't actually questions that anyone should care about (in my opinion at least). (Examples: Why did the monster kill the pilot? Why and how did this crazy magical thing happen on this cracy magical island? What happened to [random characters that only appeared once])

I'm pretty sure the only unanswered question mentioned in that video that ever bothered me is the one about the outrigger shootout.


Personally, I actually think Lost ended up explaining too much in the end. For example, I never understood why everyone kept asking what the island was. The island is the magic bean (to use a forum appropriate term) that allows us to have a story, I don't care beyond knowing that it's a magical island where magical things happen. Now tell me a story about characters I care about. Which they did  smile

Last edited by Hansen (2012-11-29 13:43:13)

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Re: #45 - Unpopular Opinions

Yeah, it annoys me that so many people moan that nothing was answered when loads was. Sure some answers weren't, the aforementioned outrigger bit for example, but enough was for me. My problem with the show *SPOILERS** was the fact that season six was so fucking uneven, it was all over the place. Characters were treated badly too, Ilana doing an Arzt, Desmond being forgotten about as was his power, Jin and Sun dying just to have less characters for the finale etc etc. And I felt a lot of the tension was gone too, something I loved about the show was the fact that it could have me on the edge of my seat with it's 'what the fuck?' moments. I very rarely got that in season six apart from the Island being underwater in the opener and Sayid coming back to life. Ooh, there's another one- Sayid used to be a bad ass, one of my faves but he was treated so poorly in the last season they should have kept him dead at the start of it. Mainly because there was no bloody point to it. He did fuck all and then died again. Rubbish. If I ever re-watch Lost again, I'll end it at the season 5 finale, that'll do for me. I'm glad Sawyer made it though, that made me smile. And that last shot of Jack lying on the ground and that bloody dog lying next to him made me tear up....****END OF SPOILERS****

So....yeah......

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Re: #45 - Unpopular Opinions

Remembering Lost just makes me angry. If I ever watch it again, I'll end it when they open that hatch and just assume they unleashed the smoke monster that then killed them all. That's a better ending to anything they could have come up with and at least I won't have to suffer through inane plots, stupid characters who never talk to each other, pointless literature and pop culture references thrown in to make the audience feel clever, and a thousand and one further mysteries thrown in just to keep viewers coming back every week.

With regards to your point above Hansen regarding having a detailed story plan being overrated - I can't say I agree, especially if your story relies on a big mystery or central mythology. Of the 4 shows I'm aware of that have such a mystery at their heart that I've seen, all have failed to deliver on those expectations generated when they began it - X-Files, ALIAS, Lost, and BSG - and we know all of them didn't actually have an answer in place before they started down that road. Furthermore, another initially successful TV show, Heroes, then went completely off the rails because the subsequent seasons, which they hadn't planned for at all, were rushed into production. The record isn't good.

The 'making it up as you go along' can only work if you're really fucking good at writing and/or you know your material really well. The most successful multi-arc series of them, Babylon 5, is masterful in how well connected all the bits are - season 1 is a text-book example of how to lay the groundwork and every season expands and extends beautifully. But not all of it was set in stone, and JMS routinely had to negotiate ways of getting through major obstacles such as actors leaving the show. But then... that was his skill and planning as well, he had written 'trap doors' for all of his characters which allowed him alternative stories should they leave.

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. - Carl Sagan

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Re: #45 - Unpopular Opinions

redxavier wrote:

Of the 4 shows I'm aware of that have such a mystery at their heart that I've seen, all have failed to deliver on those expectations generated when they began it - X-Files, ALIAS, Lost, and BSG - and we know all of them didn't actually have an answer in place before they started down that road. Furthermore, another initially successful TV show, Heroes, then went completely off the rails because the subsequent seasons, which they hadn't planned for at all, were rushed into production. The record isn't good.


See, this is where I just have to admit to being weird. None of the four shows first mentioned here fundamentally disappointed me on a plot/mythology/mystery/whatever level.* I think part of it is just how I approach my enjoyment of fiction. I tend to be more plot focused early on and then as the story moves forward and I become more invested in the characters, the plot becomes much less important to me. When it comes to ALIAS I'm not even sure what central mystery you're referring to. Admittedly, it's been like 5 years since I watched that show, so I might be misrememberering, but I suppose the central mystery there would be something like "what's up with Rambaldi?". Which is a question I'd put as only slightly more interesting than "what's the island?".


Now, about The X-Files. While the mythology episodes tended to be the least interesting episodes of that show and I always was a bigger fan of Mulder & Scully than the show itself, I do think I ended up being fairly satisfied by how it all turned out in the end. I do think the series finale is a horrible episode of television that spent way too much time explaining and connecting dots that didn't need to be explained or connected and not nearly enough time being an actual episode of The X-Files though, so I guess the finale itself disappointed me.

Anyway, my point is really just that if a work of fiction has managed to hook me in the first place, it's gonna take a lot to reverse that opinion and make me not like it. Which is probably a character flaw on my part, but whatever smile

*Heroes on the other hand is crap and beyond Company Man I never really knew what people were getting all excited about.

Last edited by Hansen (2012-11-29 19:16:34)

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Re: #45 - Unpopular Opinions

Hansen wrote:

On topic of unpopular opinions: I think having a big detailed plan for where your story is gonna go beyond what you're writng right now is vastly overrated. By this I don't mean that you shouldn't think ahead, you should just be wary of locking yourself in too much. Especially when writing television.

I don't think there's anything wrong with not having a long-term plan -- BREAKING BAD never did -- unless the whole thing about your show is laying down clues for a big mystery to eventually be revealed. That's a case where you need to know the answer before you just start asking questions willy-nilly.

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Re: #45 - Unpopular Opinions

The trope describing a long arc that's going nowhere is called "The Chris Carter Effect". For a good reason wink

Hansen wrote:

I always was a bigger fan of Mulder & Scully than the show itself

Because the actors had some nice chemistry (and both were intelligent & good-looking people).

For me, the shark-jumping moment was probably the move from Vancouver to LA after season 5 (the Vancouver weather created a much spookier atmosphere than the sunny LA). Around that time they ran out of classic monsters & urban legends and switched to a lighter tone.

So honor the valiant who die 'neath your sword
But pity the warrior who slays all his foes...

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Re: #45 - Unpopular Opinions

I can say with authority based on talking with someone who was on a conference call with ABC execs during that time that up until season 6, the island was supposed to be something very very different than what it was ultimately revealed to be.

Eddie Doty

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Re: #45 - Unpopular Opinions

Eddie wrote:

I can say with authority based on talking with someone who was on a conference call with ABC execs during that time that up until season 6, the island was supposed to be something very very different than what it was ultimately revealed to be.

Well, don't leave us hanging!

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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211

Re: #45 - Unpopular Opinions

I guess it's ok to say now since nothing ever came from it.

There's a looong version of the story, and a short one.


Short version:

Spaceship

Eddie Doty

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Re: #45 - Unpopular Opinions

See, I've heard that before, but I just don't see it. Obviously, if there was any plan, I don't know what it was or wasn't, but I can't see how you make that fit with anything that came before it and not have it be a complete out of left field thing.

Funny thing: Damon Lindelof did specifically say in several interviews that there weren't going to be an alien/spaceship ending. Which doesn't actually mean anything because they lied and/or changed their mind all the time.

Last edited by Hansen (2012-11-29 22:33:19)

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213

Re: #45 - Unpopular Opinions

Long version: 

There was a conference call with the creators of a show that was in development and set to air on ABC.  I won't reveal names, so let's clear that up right now.  This show had elemnts to it that were in the vein of science fiction and had an  overall mythology that ABC wanted to get in on early.  During the part of the discussion as to the source of this show's shenanigans, an ABC exec (again, no names) was heard by a few people to have said something along the lines of "The only thing it can't be is alien, because Lost's island is going to turn out to be from space."

Eddie Doty

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214

Re: #45 - Unpopular Opinions

I've still never watched an entire episode of Lost, and nothing I read about it makes me want to change that.

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215

Re: #45 - Unpopular Opinions

Oh, there's plenty of good there.  Great performances, good stories, amazing score, and lots of beauty shots of my old home.  The frusration with Lost is largely that it got key things wrong, not that it didn't do enough right.

Eddie Doty

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Re: #45 - Unpopular Opinions

Lost is probably the closest a tv show will ever come to feel like it was made specifically for me. And if it weren't for me having been a huge Buffy the Vampire Slayer fan since the age of 13, it would be my favorite tv show of all time. It's absolutely not perfect, but it's an ambitious pulpy drama and I wouldn't want it to be anything else than it is. I love it, warts and all.

Last edited by Hansen (2012-11-29 22:50:02)

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Re: #45 - Unpopular Opinions

Now THAT would have been an ending that fans hated. Say what you will about the current ending, but at least it fits into the overall tone and mythology of the show.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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Re: #45 - Unpopular Opinions

Doctor Submarine wrote:

Now THAT would have been an ending that fans hated.

I know I would. I don't mind spaceships/aliens, but in the case of Lost it would have been an ass pull of the worst kind.

In the same vein, any god or devil that shows up in Star Trek proves to be an alien of some kind. Why? Because the show has always been atheistic. Imagine that one of its writers suddenly pulled Yahweh out of his ass... It would be like cats and dogs living together. Mass hysteria.

So honor the valiant who die 'neath your sword
But pity the warrior who slays all his foes...

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Re: #45 - Unpopular Opinions

Marty J wrote:

I don't mind spaceships/aliens, but in the case of Lost it would have been an ass pull of the worst kind.

You think so? I never watched it, but I did watch a YouTube compilation of unanswered questions after the finale. An unmapped island, animals that don't belong there, hatches that lead to ancient machinery, smoke monsters, and time-slipping? That's a crashed alien ship leaking quantum phlebotinum if I ever heard of one.

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Re: #45 - Unpopular Opinions

Dorkman wrote:


You think so? I never watched it, but I did watch a YouTube compilation of unanswered questions after the finale. An unmapped island, animals that don't belong there, hatches that lead to ancient machinery, smoke monsters, and time-slipping? That's a crashed alien ship leaking quantum phlebotinum if I ever heard of one.


The polar bears on the island, the smoke monster and the time slipping were all answered. This is what we were saying earlier about that video not being correct.

I'm not sure what the 'hatches that lead to ancient machinery' means. smile

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Re: #45 - Unpopular Opinions

I dunno, there was a room full of gears or some shit. Like I said, I didn't watch the show.

And just because they retconned an answer doesn't mean that was the answer they had in mind when they started. Have you learned nothing from DIF?!

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Re: #45 - Unpopular Opinions

Heh. I know they made shit up as they went. I know you don't care, Mike, but-

The Island was powered by, essentially, electromagnetic energy underground. This energy, when utilised properly could send people off the Island. and also travel in time. The gears were built to control this and the polar bears were bred on the island to push the gears.  There was a fuck up with the energy when Locke left and that is when the time slipping happened. That is explained on the show (again, making it up as they went along) and I'm not explaining it very well. But I tried big_smile

I'm not saying they didn't answer things, there are a couple of things unresolved that pisses me off but that I have a feeling that video is made by folk who are just annoyed the show didn't go the way they wanted.

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Re: #45 - Unpopular Opinions

I couldn't be bothered with Lost past season 1. Perfect example of a great setup with no-where to go and no plan how to get there.

BSG, for all it's faults towards the end, did a much better job of making it's overall mythology feel cohesive despite making shit up as they went. I know people really dislike some of the choices in the finale, but those elements are introduced and referenced as early as half-way into season 1, and don't feel as much like left-field wtf moments to me.

I still say the more planning the better, this is one reason Game of Thrones has been so successful so far, they have a multi-year lead on where the story is going and are able to see what works and doesn't work and craft their story arcs around that.

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Re: #45 - Unpopular Opinions

It must be easier for Game Of Thrones, though, having the books to work from.  Most TV shows don't plan anything too far in advance because ideas change all the time. There were many ideas that the makers of Lost had that they had to change for certain reasons such as their child actor growing up 'too fast', actors not wanting to commit to moving to Hawaii etc. In fact, they had a long term plan for one particular character, Mr Eko, who first appeared in season 2. He was to be part of the whole good vs evil nonsense in the final season but the actor wanted to leave and they killed him off in season 3.

And for the record, the finale of Lost made perfect sense to me and works as a finale for that show. It was the rest of the last season that was a bit shit. The show has some excellent moments and excellent episodes of drama and action. The finales for seasons 3 and 4 are amazing in my opinion with great twists and turns and 'wtf' moments. It was just ruined by season six.

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Re: #45 - Unpopular Opinions

Jimmy B wrote:

The Island was powered by, essentially, electromagnetic energy underground. This energy, when utilised properly could send people off the Island. and also travel in time. The gears were built to control this and the polar bears were bred on the island to push the gears.  There was a fuck up with the energy when Locke left and that is when the time slipping happened.

Which again, mostly makes sense ("sense," anyway) in terms of an alien ship, and none in terms of

SPOILER Show
the whole thing being purgatory.

If I had an objection to the idea of LOST's big reveal being an alien spacecraft, it'd be that just based on what I know peripherally, it's too obviously the answer, not that it seems out of left field.

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