Welcome, TheDu! Great first post!

I'm still curious to see an expanded version of the sexualism-in-comics discussion, that TheDu started up. How do you guys feel about it?

For reference, that conversation starts at around 2:05:30 in the NTSC download.

The mistake in all this discussion is assuming that what works for men (in regards to viewing women as sexy) also applies to women (in viewing men as sexy). Sexiness to a man is primarily about looks (youth, slimness, symmetry, health, fitness). Men don't care as much about the woman's social status, income, job, brain, etc. Women, on the other hand, have physical appearance as only one of many attributes. Consider it on a points-system where different attributes are weighted. Let's say anything over 100 points is deemed 'sexy'. For men, almost all the points come from the woman's looks: 20 points for long legs, 20 points for large eyes & lips, 20 points for hair, 20 points for flawless skin, 20 points for perky breasts, etc. For women, it may only be 30% weighted to men's looks, the rest coming from social status, wit, intelligence, leadership, humour, extroversion/confidence, positive outlook, etc. That's why withered old men can still get hot chicks because they make up the points in other areas. It doesn't work the other way around.

So equating sexualization of characters based solely on poses or revealing costumes is not a fair comparison.

You're quite right. My apologies, I was working from memory and Black Widows pose in that one seemed to line up exactly with the pose I remembered causing all the controversy. They are actually very similar now that I see them side by side.

You don't think the Black Widow pose was chosen to be badass? I mean, it's not like they have her laying seductively across a car hood wearing lingerie which would make your point to a tee. They have her in a battle pose designed to show off her unique weapon set (and I bet it was hard to find a dynamic looking pose when the weapon they chose to promote is essentially bracelets - sorry "wrist gauntlets"). Plus, as demonstrated by the parody poster, if she was facing the other way everyone could be complaining about how her pose was chosen to highlight her breasts.

Maybe this is why I'm having trouble following the train of thought where this image is concerned. It certainly seems like there is a problem within some movies and comics and people are using this image as the scapegoat to represent that problem. The thing is I don't think this is actually a particularly bad example of this. It seems like comics themselves are committing far worse crimes than this on a weekly basis. Almost any image of Powergirl would be a more compelling argument.

That's a valid point and a great example, but on the same token how is the fact that Lautner is shirtless in virtually every piece of promotional material for those films any different. In that case they're trying to appeal to a female audience with the idea of sex and do so by simply presenting him muscle clad, rugged and shirtless. The only purpose of that is for him to be sexy, and the fact that he's not actively gyrating does not make it less so.  There's a reason those shirtless posters are in the bedrooms of thousands of girls across the world and it sure isn't because he's an amazing acting talent.

I feel like people are conditioned by society to find some thing sexy and some things not. The idealised male form is the sexualised male form. A male trying to do anything we associate with a sexy pose or movement would likely cause more comedy than it would actual titillation. The fact of that matter is that if your going to try to sexualise the male form in order to appeal to a certain audience then it seems like you're going to end up going to that same idealised version of the male and just showcase it.

And as a disclaimer all of this is of course just my opinion. I'm not trying to force it down anyone's throats, just put it out there for the purpose of discussion. Heck, I'd love for someone to change my mind.

Phwoar. Nice bike!
(I like how the bloke in the back is totally oblivious)

That's why she's in the movie.

Whilst there is a problem with sexism in the comics media, they picked quite possibly the worst example of it with that Avengers art.

People are acting like only the female outfits are in somehow fetishizing.  Yes, women superhero outfits tend to show more skin.  Men's outfits, however, are routinely skin tight and every single hero has impossible to achieve muscle mass and definition (even in the comics, Tony Stark is ripped under all that armor).  Do you know how many guys hit the gym chasing that image?  I think the outfits of BOTH genders set an impossibly high standard and fetishize in ways that are mythological, if not necessarily healthy.  Here is a really good discussion on Super hero fashion it with Tim Gunn, that touches on some of these issues.

Exactly.  There are some shots of MAGNETO....holocaust survivor MAGNETO, and he has lats like Bruce Lee.  SO that's why I don't jump onto the whole "Comics are sexist!" bandwagon because its about absurd sexual images for both genders equally, in my opinion.

Email this guy and ask

Imho there's nothing wrong with comics being like that. That's what they're for. They show perfect 'people' with impossible physiques and godlike abilities.

Last edited by Lamer (2012-11-21 11:02:06)

Again, idealization and sexualization are not the same.

All the men have muscles. Fine. All the women have big boobs. Fine. That's idealization. We can agree it's unrealistic in both directions.

The difference is that the male poses do get to just be normal poses, like standing or sitting there. Or if it's an extreme pose, it's meant to show agility or ferocity or power. Females, it seems, have to spread their legs and arch their backs and otherwise do absurd things when they're just standing there; most poses are extreme and they're meant to show nubility because their primary reason for being in a panel is to appeal to the male audience.

Men are ALSO there to appeal to the male audience, and appeal to (and reinforce) male sensibilities by being powerful and dominant. That is not sexualizing them. Sexualizing them would tend to make the generally-heterosexual-male audience uncomfortable.

Here's the cover of a Black Widow comic:

Here's the same pose with Iron Man:

Was your reaction "Well, of course he looks ridiculous posing that way, he's a man"? Yeah, that's called sexism.

Yes, men wear skin-tight outfits showing off perfect bodies. But they don't wear ones like this:

Or these.

Are both genders' portrayals sexist in their own way, reinforcements of unrealistic gender roles? Sure. Are they equally so? Fuck no.

Here's an interesting couple of posts comparing the way the two genders pose on fantasy book covers that might be helpful on the topic:

http://www.jimchines.com/2012/01/striking-a-pose/

http://www.jimchines.com/2012/04/posing-like-a-man/

As we pointed out on the episode, we were talking about the marketing.

EDIT: By the way, there's a lot of defensiveness around this topic and I want to be clear that having sexist ways of thinking doesn't make you a bad person. We're all taught to think in sexist, male-supremacist terms -- in the same way that heterosexual supremacy and white supremacy are an underlying part of the culture -- and it becomes our normal mode of thinking. It takes effort to see and break out of. I appear to be one of the most feminist members of the community and I still have a tendency to think in those terms a lot of the time if I'm not careful.

Last edited by Dorkman (2012-11-22 07:55:29)

Men and women are different. What is sexual to one, is not necessarily sexual to the other. That's why Dorkman's example of Ironman bending over is a false comparison. No woman would find that sexy. She may find a ripped male standing upright in a dominant position just as sexualized as men do of a woman bending over. It's the end result or the concept of sexualization that's the key, not the specific pose, as different poses work depending on gender. In that way, both males and females are sexualized, but in ways that reflect different readers' instincts.

Great episode. In this conversation I see a lot of angry opinion, but none from women.