Re: #31 - Chat: The Avengers

Jimmy B wrote:

Ok, I think things have to be clarified here. I didn't say I did not want to see it happen. And I didn't say you said you wanted Cap to inherit Thor's powers. Plus, just going by the films, I prefer Captain America to Thor (both the films and the characters). smile

Now, I get that there are nods to the comics all over the film I just think that it would have been a bit much as the average Joe may not get it. Things like the Hulk spitting the bullet out is subtle enough that it doesn't matter it's from one of the comics. Going by what has already happened in the film series, Cap getting the Hammer may not have worked. I think it would have been pointless. The fact that Captain America is completely a good guy is in the movie already, we don't need to see the Hammer 'chose' him. That's just my opinion on it as a non-comic book reader.



It's all good. I'm not accusing anyone of saying one thing, or another. I just thought that I might have not been clear enough. But, as I stated, I think it would have been cool. That's all. Maybe in the next film.
No sweat.

Those who would trade liberties for securities, deserve neither liberties, nor securities.
-Benjamin Franklin

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Re: #31 - Chat: The Avengers

I would like to see it in the next film smile

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Re: #31 - Chat: The Avengers

rtambree wrote:

You guys are right about Fury & the Plinkett test. Good call.

The Plinkett test is NOT a good test for all characters. Plinkett's point was that the characters of Phantom Menace were fundamentally different from those of the original Star Wars. What he doesn't note is that the reason for that is that the characters in Star Wars are all stock characters: the peasant boy who yearns for adventure, the wise old wizard, the loveable rogue and his big oaf sidekick, the plucky princess, the black knight....

Characters who cannot be summed up in a discreet set of traits can either be flat and lifeless or complex and fascinating.

But Fury IS a stock character. To date anyway, he's the gruff but good-hearted coach. We could easily have gotten a "win one for the Gipper" speech toward the end of Avengers.

Last edited by Zarban (2012-05-18 05:10:53)

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: #31 - Chat: The Avengers

I got this off a tumblr blog that I follow.
http://fuckyeahblackwidow.tumblr.com/po … -im-pretty

Here is the required post about the Avengers film, that Loki interrogation sequence, and themes of weakness, expectation, and vulnerability. When I say required, I mean that everybody else is. But I will soldier on bravely, just like every other person on the internet in love with their own opinion.

So, Natasha’s most constant recurring themes are themes of control. Comic books are vast and largely un-sum-up-able, but every character has central metaphors that shine through multiple arcs and adaptations, and I think questions of control, questions of agency, are a huge part of her equation. Duane Swierczynski is the current writer on Birds of Prey, but he also did a run on Black Widow, and this is something he had to say about it:

"From the very beginning, she had no say in her own destiny, which is a very noir, very dark kind of outlook on life. And yet, she fought back from that and has now taken her own life in her own hands again. I guess I respond to those kinds of characters. Characters that seem screwed, who are also talented but are put in a difficult position and who fight their way out of it. That’s what appeals to me about her. Despite the convoluted, difficult life, she’s come out on top. And now her mission, the way I see it, is that she wants to free other people from being controlled and used. That’s her thing, I believe, and why she is equally super hero as she is a spy."

Natasha is someone whose specific skillset was forced upon her, something beyond her immediate control, but it’s also the only means she has to take her own life back.

In some ways weakness is a lack of control. Victims don’t act, they’re acted upon. And sometimes that’s how Natasha’s story operates— but not always. Spies are fundamentally agents of something other than themselves. They have missions they are assigned to, but do not decide. On the flipside of all this is freedom.

A life without protocol. Natasha’s second wave feminism came when four color comics embraced women’s liberation, the ability to know her own mind, to be her own woman. And love, with its tragic and intoxicating complications, is something no one can control, hence her ~web of romance~.

These themes explain her origin(s), her genre, and her modus operandi. Why she’s a spy, why she’s a superhero, why she has to be paranoid but can’t lose herself in her paranoia. Information is control, intelligence is control, weapons are control, appearance is control, and she needs all of this to stay alive, but she needs more if the good parts of her are to survive.

I’m explaining this because to me these are the things the Avengers film is trying to adapt, and they are things that encompass gender but aren’t limited to gender. There’s allegory there, the language of superheroes is a language of symbols, but these are flexile metaphors that gain their iconic power through their adaptability. Legends grow in their reiterations, they take on new meanings as they are retold, but they don’t lose their old connotations either. This is basically why comic books are weird and unapproachable.
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m479p7ZJqU1qzqhuh.gif
"No one looks below the surface, not here. You fit the mold of what they expect in a place like this, and that’s all that matters to them. It’s all about calculating how willfully blind a person is going to be. And then exploiting that."

Anyway, one of the basic premises of the espionage is that things aren’t what they seem, cue spooky music. (“Fallaces sunt rerum species.”) The battle of wits, the trick of seeing past appearances, that is just as important as the guns and the kung fu car explosions. So of course Natasha is introduced as tied up and dangling over Certain Peril. There’s a Polish actor pretending to be Russian, and he’s got the girl right where he wants her— but by assuming he has control, he loses it.

Whedon’s inviting a game of expectations, staging the damsel-in-distress interrogation like the action movie cliche it is. We’re invited to assume that Natasha is bound and helpless and will need some sort of SHIELD jetpack intervention. If we’re savvy moviegoers or have seen the previews, then yeah, we know there’s more going on, insert smugface emoticon here.

But it’s not a coincidence that Natasha literally flips around the chair she’s tied to, breaks it, and starts whacking some generic goon ass with it. The instruments of her capture have become the instruments of her freedom. Nor is it coincidental that the scene is framed by Natasha blinking in heavy makeup, by her picking her stilettos off the ground. When stock evil Russian dude needs to cement his own superiority, he does it by dismissing her as just another pretty face.

See, society has this myth it likes to tell about pretty women, and it says they tend to be skin-deep. And the twist in that myth is that it says more about society’s obsession with appearances than it does about pretty women. The introduction beatdown sequence is the most deliberately sexualized Natasha is in the entire movie, but it’s to play with a purpose. We see her through the eyes of dismissive generic goons so we can make their mistakes. The male gaze gazes here so that she can look back.

This sequence foreshadows a similar interrogation tango with Loki in his big plastic hamster wheel. The warehouse goon-off was about Natasha’s physical control, the perception of bodily weakness. She has no hope of wacking Loki on the head with a chair. But Loki takes the past he’s stolen from Clint Barton’s head and tries to fashion it into a poking pole. He wants to unmake her mental control, and he thinks he can, because he’s Patron Saint of Trolling.

It’s not that the wounds he’s striking at aren’t real— it’s that he doesn’t control them. Natasha does. That’s why she wins.

The visual language of this scene is pretty far removed from the dingy warehouse. There’s no action, no close up on her heels. At the climactic moment we see just her shoulders, the back of her head. But she’s still in control.

I think this explains why she’s afraid of the Hulk, not because he’s the brusing male id run amok to wreck sexual violence, but because he’s a metaphor for unchecked emotion. Natasha’s power comes from her intense self-discipline, her experience, her training, and her needlepoint control. The Hulk is her diametric opposite. He’s also big and green and smashes things. Of course she’d be terrified, of course she’d be rattled. She’s been unmade, before— and that is a situation she can’t control.

She tries, though. She waves the other SHIELD agents away, she speaks to Bruce as calm as she can manage, doesn’t lash out. And when it’s over, and she survives, she strings herself back together and saves Hawkeye. She uses her self-possession to give him back his.

That moment of vulnerability establishes the stakes at play, and establishes the sort of personal badassitude it takes for her to storm into flying centipede battle armed with nothing her training prepared her for. This is outside her protocol. Note that she doesn’t defeat the alien army by batting her eyelashes or trying to sweet talk them, but by hitching a ride, closing the portal, and controlling the battlefield.

I’ve seen it said that Natasha was the only human one, the only one allowed that moment of vulnerability, but that is high-stacked lies. This is a movie that features Tony Stark freefalling through the cosmos, Christ-like, where Bruce Banner casually admits to attempting suicide. Clint spends most of the movie brainwashed, Steve is unsure of his place in a post-Truman Doctrine world. Everyone’s emotional insecurities are plucked by Loki and his magical glowy mind staff.
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m47fvh778M1qzqhuh.gif
"Lack of options, Phil. It’s what most women are up against. If you want to succeed, you’ve got two choice… pole dancer or hard-faced harridan. It is Madonna or whore. It’s just the Madonna got promoted— on the condition that she’s twice as tough and twice as smart as any man she’s dealing with. Anything less, and they’ll rip her to shreds."

But Natasha is the only one who mines her own vulnerability. She’s the only one who makes it into a performance. And there’s something radical in acknowledging that feminine vulnerability as a performative, as something fake we are taught to expect and to mimic. That can be our superpower. We can be strong in ways men never will be because we face bullshit they will never have to face. That’s not justice, but it is power. It is strength. It’s control.

That’s not everything Natasha does in this film, it’s not the only space her story inhabits. She deadpans in the face of danger, she worries for her partner, she’s driven by the murky corners of her past, the balance of her cosmic equation. And because we get more than manipulation and reversals those reversals become more powerful. The idea that there’s more to Natasha than her pretty face only really sticks if the story treats her that way.

That doesn’t mean the Avengers film is some kind of feminist utopia, that whatever Natasha’s metaphors are, they couldn’t be made more vibrant by including more large female roles. The Avengers are overwhelmingly white, and overwhelmingly male, and the characters who aren’t will be cowled by their status as the exception until the day that they aren’t.

But I’ve seen people straight-faced argue that Natasha is presented as a stripper because she swings on a pole during a fight scene. I’ve read a whole lot that assumes her storyline purpose is her cleavage. I’ve feminist-presenting concerns about Women Who Wear Tight Clothing in Our Superhero Films (and Why it is Bad They are There.) You see, society has this myth it likes to tell about pretty women.

I’m not calling this a victory. I am calling Black Widow character, and not an assemblage of physical traits. I am trying to look at the things lurking beneath appearances. I am using my own eyes, my own mind. I’m in control.

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Re: #31 - Chat: The Avengers

Wow, someone took their red pill this morning.

Posted from my iPad
http://trek.fm

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Re: #31 - Chat: The Avengers

Humans came up with atomic bombs about 70 years ago. And yet aliens from the future invade with chariots and space-clubs that have to shoot inhabitants individually, possibly the most inefficient way to take over a planet. You'd expect a scaly green finger in an orbiting ship to press a button, deploying 100,000 neutron bombs that wipes out all mammals on the surface of the planet. There's probably an app for that on the alien's smartphone.

This technological anachronism reminded me of Starship Troopers, where we've developed faster-than-light space travel for massive spaceships, and yet have to shoot the bugs with bullets.... individually..... over and over again.

not long to go now...

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Re: #31 - Chat: The Avengers

Gregory Harbin wrote:

Wow, someone took their red pill this morning.

Is that the color of the placebo in the Yaz prescription? [ducks, covering groin]

Last edited by drewjmore (2012-05-18 16:37:00)

(UTC-06:00) Central Time (US & Canada)

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Re: #31 - Chat: The Avengers

rtambree wrote:

Humans came up with atomic bombs about 70 years ago. And yet aliens from the future invade with chariots and space-clubs that have to shoot inhabitants individually, possibly the most inefficient way to take over a planet. You'd expect a scaly green finger in an orbiting ship to press a button, deploying 100,000 neutron bombs that wipes out all mammals on the surface of the planet. There's probably an app for that on the alien's smartphone.

This technological anachronism reminded me of Starship Troopers, where we've developed faster-than-light space travel for massive spaceships, and yet have to shoot the bugs with bullets.... individually..... over and over again.

First: there is no substitute for ground troop operations, Secretary Rumsfeld.

Second: aliens—they're so weird, huh?

Third: surely, the most inefficient way to take over a planet is to try to purchase it, parcel by parcel.

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: #31 - Chat: The Avengers

rtambree wrote:

Humans came up with atomic bombs about 70 years ago. And yet aliens from the future invade with chariots and space-clubs that have to shoot inhabitants individually, possibly the most inefficient way to take over a planet. You'd expect a scaly green finger in an orbiting ship to press a button, deploying 100,000 neutron bombs that wipes out all mammals on the surface of the planet. There's probably an app for that on the alien's smartphone.

This technological anachronism reminded me of Starship Troopers, where we've developed faster-than-light space travel for massive spaceships, and yet have to shoot the bugs with bullets.... individually..... over and over again.

Wasn't the whole point of the deal for the aliens to take over Earth so that Loki could rule it, in exchange for the Tesseract, which they can do whatever they want with... IN SPAAAAAAAACE? How much fun is it to rule a planet upon which you are the only living thing?

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Re: #31 - Chat: The Avengers

Yeah...Loki might be kinda pissed if they just glassed the entire planet.

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: #31 - Chat: The Avengers

C-Spin wrote:

Wasn't the whole point of the deal for the aliens to take over Earth so that Loki could rule it, in exchange for the Tesseract, which they can do whatever they want with... IN SPAAAAAAAACE? How much fun is it to rule a planet upon which you are the only living thing?

When the British took over India, they did it by making protection-racket deals with the ruling princes. It was quite efficient and surprisingly few administrators were needed to rule over 200 million people. And most of the army was made up of Indians! Even the Nazi concentration camps had Jewish collaborators.

By that analogy, if the aliens wanted to rule (rather than just exterminate), then they should hijack the existing political infrastructure. Turn the existing rulers into puppets by showering them with gifts and protecting them from threats (real or perceived), and most of the population will go along with it.  This has been the tactic from at least Roman times, if not earlier.

not long to go now...

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Re: #31 - Chat: The Avengers

C-Spin wrote:

How much fun is it to rule a planet upon which you are the only living thing?

That kinda bugged me in Lord of the Rings when you see that map of Middle Earth stained by the spreading armies of Sauron and the voiceover saying something about darkness destroying everything in its wake. What's the point of that? That's victory? Sauron sits on the throne and gazes over a devastated, smouldering landscape? Pyrrhic victory anyone?

not long to go now...

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Re: #31 - Chat: The Avengers

rtambree wrote:

By that analogy, if the aliens wanted to rule (rather than just exterminate), then they should hijack the existing political infrastructure. Turn the existing rulers into puppets by showering them with gifts and protecting them from threats (real or perceived), and most of the population will go along with it.  This has been the tactic from at least Roman times, if not earlier.

The aliens didn't want to rule. Loki did. The aliens were merely the payment the other promised in exchange for the Tesseract.

Think of it this way.

Loki=Viserys Targaryen
Tesseract= Dany
Other= Khal Drogo
The alien horde= The Khalasar
Earth=Westeros

That's pretty much the way I read it. Loki doesn't want to subtly infect the human governments. Fuck that, he's a god. He marches in and says this is mine now.


EDIT:


rtambree wrote:

That kinda bugged me in Lord of the Rings when you see that map of Middle Earth stained by the spreading armies of Sauron and the voiceover saying something about darkness destroying everything in its wake. What's the point of that? That's victory? Sauron sits on the throne and gazes over a devastated, smouldering landscape? Pyrrhic victory anyone?

Honestly. I think that's exactly what Sauron wants. He is the personification of pure evil remember. He wants to be the biggest, baddest and have nothing else in existence to challenge that. It's a very simplistic way of looking at it, but Lord Of The Rings is all about that type of simplistic morality.

Last edited by BigDamnArtist (2012-05-18 22:03:51)

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: #31 - Chat: The Avengers

BigDamnArtist wrote:
rtambree wrote:

By that analogy, if the aliens wanted to rule (rather than just exterminate), then they should hijack the existing political infrastructure. Turn the existing rulers into puppets by showering them with gifts and protecting them from threats (real or perceived), and most of the population will go along with it.  This has been the tactic from at least Roman times, if not earlier.

The aliens didn't want to rule. Loki did. The aliens were merely the payment the other promised in exchange for the Tesseract.

Think of it this way.

Loki=Viserys Targaryen
Tesseract= Dany
Other= Khal Drogo
The alien horde= The Khalasar
Earth=Westeros

That's pretty much the way I read it. Loki doesn't want to subtly infect the human governments. Fuck that, he's a god. He marches in and says this is mine now.

Thanks for cleaning that up. In that case, Loki's best tactic would have been to stay out of the way, let the aliens attack and wreak havoc and then come in at the end and 'save' humanity and be hailed as a messiah. Sort of a real life '9-11 Truther' scenario. I just don't see how blowing up New Yorkers' cars is going to get everyone onside if you're there from the start.

not long to go now...

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Re: #31 - Chat: The Avengers

BigDamnArtist wrote:

Honestly. I think that's exactly what Sauron wants. He is the personification of pure evil remember. He wants to be the biggest, baddest and have nothing else in existence to challenge that. It's a very simplistic way of looking at it, but Lord Of The Rings is all about that type of simplistic morality.

Hmm - okay, but what would that be like... after five minutes? Imagine setting up your throne on the Moon... and being all smug that's there's nothing else out there to challenge you.... and you twiddle your thumbs a little bit... check your email (0 messages), flick through a few channels (static), check your favourite websites (404 errors)...wonder what's for dinner...

not long to go now...

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Re: #31 - Chat: The Avengers

But it's not about being the messiah or the savior, or being revered. It's about "I am a god. Shut the fuck and bow bitches."

I'm not saying it's the best plan. But it's Loki's plan.

EDIT: I don't know. I don't claim to know what the personification of all evil plans to do with his empire, probably  watch it burn for a while then start anew with him as a god in the middle of it. Who knows.

And yes, as humans it would probably suck pretty hard once we got it, but Sauron is a long way off from human.

Last edited by BigDamnArtist (2012-05-18 22:15:38)

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: #31 - Chat: The Avengers

BigDamnArtist wrote:

But it's not about being the messiah or the savior, or being revered. It's about "I am a god. Shut the fuck and bow bitches."

I'm not saying it's the best plan. But it's Loki's plan.

Fair enough. He likened humans to ants. How much pleasure would you get if an ant colony bowed down to you? I think 7-year-olds get a thrill from waving a lit match around in an ants nest, but you grow out of it by about 10.

I can remember playing Doom (showing my age here) in God-mode and it got pretty boring after a few minutes.

Last edited by avatar (2012-05-18 22:18:41)

not long to go now...

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Re: #31 - Chat: The Avengers

rtambree wrote:

Fair enough. He likened humans to ants. How much pleasure would you get if an ant colony bowed down to you?

That Yahweh guy gets off on it pretty hard from what I hear.

But your objection to the idea of an evil guy's plan being to destroy everything is an issue I'm starting to have more and more with big fantasy stories I try to write or develop -- it's hard for me to get my head around what such a tyrant gets from "ruling" over a wasteland and a decimated people. Like, the Emperor in Star Wars. Why? I think it's just an ego thing when you get down to it -- the gratification of having power.

That's certainly something we do see in actual humans all the time. We call them sociopaths (and/or Republicans), but even if it doesn't make sense to sane humans, not-sane humans craving power regardless of the cost isn't exactly a magic bean.

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Re: #31 - Chat: The Avengers

Dorkman wrote:
rtambree wrote:

Fair enough. He likened humans to ants. How much pleasure would you get if an ant colony bowed down to you?

That Yahweh guy gets off on it pretty hard from what I hear.

But your objection to the idea of an evil guy's plan being to destroy everything is an issue I'm starting to have more and more with big fantasy stories I try to write or develop -- it's hard for me to get my head around what such a tyrant gets from "ruling" over a wasteland and a decimated people. But it's a trope that most people still seem to accept, so if I can't come up with anything more rational I just do it anyway and know it won't be questioned too hard.

Yes, it's related to the problem of heaven. The world's great Abrahamic religions never really go into much detail of what it would actually be like. If you have everything and know everything and there's never any time limits and everything is perfect, then what the hell (pun intended) is there to do? A Charlie Sheen lifestyle... forever?

not long to go now...

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Re: #31 - Chat: The Avengers

Dorkman wrote:

That's certainly something we do see in actual humans all the time. We call them sociopaths (and/or Republicans), but even if it doesn't make sense to sane humans, not-sane humans craving power regardless of the cost isn't exactly a magic bean.

I accept that. With a madman/alien/God, anything goes, fair enough. Don't question that it doesn't make any sense because he/she/it is insane. That's fine. But it does add something for the audience if the antagonist has a clear motive that one can relate to. In The Insider, the evil corporate CEO wants to maximize tobacco profits and share price.

But if it's just a psychopath or insane man/deity, it might as well be a hurricane or some other natural disaster that just randomly wreaks havoc.

Last edited by avatar (2012-05-18 23:27:30)

not long to go now...

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Re: #31 - Chat: The Avengers

I think Loki actually has more motivation than most when it comes to the villainous ruler bit. I saw it as being his chance to give his family a big middle finger. He's showing his father that he can take and rule a kingdom on his own, without Daddy's help, and he's fucking with Thor's favorite people as a bonus. He wasn't particularly interested in the idea of ruling Asgard in Thor. But making Odin and Thor witness the subjugation of Earth whilst they're stuck in Asgard... that's just his kind of mischief. You might even say he's the god of that sort of thing.

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Re: #31 - Chat: The Avengers

Tyrants have ruled over smoldering wastelands for thousands of years and still do in the filthy corners. North Korea is a starving hellhole. Parts of the Middle East are festering wounds. Parts of Africa are gangrenous ulcers. The Eastern Bloc was 31 flavors of human misery for 70 years. Medieval European monarchies were largely muckholes of disease and slaughter. Ancient empires were mostly slave-driven, human-sacrificing war economies.

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

148

Re: #31 - Chat: The Avengers

I don't know why you people are raving about this movie. The Avengers sucked. None of the original actors had a cameo. Actors like Patrick Macnee Ian Hendry or Honor Blackman or even Diana Rigg and Linda Thorson. Shit they even forgot about the 1998 film with Ralph Fiennes and Uma Thurman and Sean Connery.

Don't go see this so called Avengers movie! FUCK THIS SHIT!

Re: #31 - Chat: The Avengers

Ewing wrote:

I don't know why you people are raving about this movie. The Avengers sucked. None of the original actors had a cameo. Actors like Patrick Macnee Ian Hendry or Honor Blackman or even Diana Rigg and Linda Thorson. Shit they even forgot about the 1998 film with Ralph Fiennes and Uma Thurman and Sean Connery.

Don't go see this so called Avengers movie! FUCK THIS SHIT!

Red Letter Media's Half in the Bag beat you to that joke.  smile

http://redlettermedia.com/half-in-the-bag/

not long to go now...

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150

Re: #31 - Chat: The Avengers

rtambree wrote:

If you have everything and know everything and there's never any time limits and everything is perfect, then what the hell (pun intended) is there to do? A Charlie Sheen lifestyle... forever?

I'm listening...