Topic: "Well written."

Confession time.

I have my preferences for how a thing reads, but I'm not exactly sure what one is referring to when they say a work is "well written," or "poorly written."

Discuss. Preferably with examples.  lol

EDIT: My suspicion is that "over-written" is a term that'll get a lot of play in this thread. I do think folks, ahem, languishly inclining their indulgences upon the ever-growing temptation to fill a thought with an amount of thesaurus words that can only be described as galactically sundry... are not "writing well." But is that it?

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: "Well written."

Here's the winner of a Bad Writing Prize... Judith Butler...

The move from a structuralist account in which capital is understood to structure social relations in relatively homologous ways to a view of hegemony in which power relations are subject to repetition, convergence, and rearticulation brought the question of temporality into the thinking of structure, and marked a shift from a form of Althusserian theory that takes structural totalities as theoretical objects to one in which the insights into the contingent possibility of structure inaugurate a renewed conception of hegemony as bound up with the contingent sites and strategies of the rearticulation of power.

not long to go now...

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Re: "Well written."

Academic writing can often become obtuse, since they're immersed in jargon for so long they forget that's not how people speak. Out of context it's especially bad -- I'm guessing as part of an historical case she's making, those terms would be more clearly defined in advance of that sentence.

First and foremost, I think good writing is clarity. The trouble with Thesaurus-thumpers who want to impress you with their erudition is that they are more concerned with using impressive words than with using the correct word to express their meaning. I can't stand these writers because they're frauds -- they're NOT erudite, they're using a Thesaurus to supply themselves with words they've possibly never heard of before, which is why the words are often incorrect or have unintended connotations, and confuse rather than enhance the point they're attempting to make. I'm much more impressed by writers who convey complex thoughts with simple words than the ones who cloak simple thoughts in complex words. The ones, in other words, who aren't trying to impress above all else.

Many would-be writers stumble at the point of just trying to be clear without being obnoxious. If you can do that, in my book you're already a good writer. If you can be clear and do it with style, that's when something becomes really well-written.

Can you be clear in your meaning and funny? Can you be clear with your meaning and write with a pleasing rhythm to your prose, by the words you choose and how you arrange them? Can you be clear with your meaning and convey additional subtextual meaning simultaneously? Can you be clear and evocative, or emotional, or highly technical?

Better yet: can you be clearer because you are doing these things?

Good writing doesn't inherently mean long sentences or short ones, big words or small ones, simple grammar or complex. It can mean any or all of these things. A good writer is the one who has a sizeable toolkit of skills and knows enough about them to use the proper tools for a given job (i.e. each idea she's trying to convey).

EDIT: This is of course in regards to a work that's actually intended to be read as the final product -- a book, article, etc. -- and the experience of the written word. We also refer to movies as being well-/poorly-written, but we're talking about something different in that case.

Last edited by Dorkman (2012-11-28 17:13:47)

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Re: "Well written."

... Well written.


- Branco

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Re: "Well written."

Clarity
Specificity
Brevity

Re: "Well written."

http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/302702_426773024056660_71879289_n.jpg

---------------------------------------------
I would never lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation.

Re: "Well written."

I remember seeing a longer version of that.

1. Avoid alliteration. Always.

2. Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

3. Avoid cliches like the plague. (They're old hat.)

4. Employ the vernacular.

5. Eschew ampersands & abbreviations, etc.

6. Parenthetical remarks (however relevant) are unnecessary.

7. It is wrong to ever split an infinitive.

8. Contractions aren't necessary.

9. Foreign words and phrases are not apropos.

10. One should never generalize.

11. Eliminate quotations. As Ralph Waldo Emerson once said: "I hate quotations. Tell me what you know."

12. Comparisons are as bad as cliches.

13. Don't be redundant; don't use more words than necessary; it's highly superfluous.

14. Profanity sucks.

15. Be more or less specific.

16. Understatement is always best.

17. Exaggeration is a billion times worse than understatement.

18. One-word sentences? Eliminate.

19. Analogies in writing are like feathers on a snake.

20. The passive voice is to be avoided.

21. Go around the barn at high noon to avoid colloquialisms.

22. Even if a mixed metaphor sings, it should be derailed.

23. Who needs rhetorical questions?

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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Re: "Well written."

Dorkman wrote:

Can you be clear in your meaning and funny? Can you be clear with your meaning and write with a pleasing rhythm to your prose, by the words you choose and how you arrange them? Can you be clear with your meaning and convey additional subtextual meaning simultaneously? Can you be clear and evocative, or emotional, or highly technical?

Better yet: can you be clearer because you are doing these things?

I love how this effectively boils down to: "Try to write like William Shakespeare."

"ShadowDuelist is a god."
        -Teague Chrystie

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Re: "Well written."

I dunno, the word "clear" was in there a lot.

/is kidding, people

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: "Well written."

To be fair, the clarity in Shakespeare takes a while to resolve itself. Especially if you're forced into it.

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Re: "Well written."

Dorkman wrote:

Academic writing can often become obtuse, since they're immersed in jargon for so long they forget that's not how people speak. Out of context it's especially bad -- I'm guessing as part of an historical case she's making, those terms would be more clearly defined in advance of that sentence.

As someone who has been immersed in academia for the past few years, I can agree with this wholeheartedly.  I don't know how many articles I have had to read for a class that take twice as long as they should because I've had to decipher writing filled with big words and seemingly never-ending sentences.  I think this is partially a learned writing style, partially wanting to fit in with what is perceived as the norm for academic writing, and partially to make the author sound smarter.  However, I don't think it is a good idea to go too far in the opposite direction either so as to write as if the audience is unintelligent.  I guess I would say then that something that is well-written strikes a balance between simplicity and complexity.

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Re: "Well written."

I struggle with writing short, declarative sentences, they always grow into crazy run-on affairs with too many additional clauses and such.

(UTC-06:00) Central Time (US & Canada)

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Re: "Well written."

What's worse? Obscurantist academic writing, or fingernails on a chalkboard, or a dentist's drill, or this...?

Anakin: "You... are so... beautiful."
Padme: "It's only because I'm so in love."
Anakin: "No, it's because I'm so in love with you."
Padme: "So love has blinded you?"
Anakin: "Well that's not exactly what I meant."
Padme: "It's probably true."

not long to go now...

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Re: "Well written."

avatar wrote:

What's worse? Obscurantist academic writing, or fingernails on a chalkboard, or a dentist's drill, or this...?

Anakin: "You... are so... beautiful."
Padme: "It's only because I'm so in love."
Anakin: "No, it's because I'm so in love with you."
Padme: "So love has blinded you?"
Anakin: "Well that's not exactly what I meant."
Padme: "It's probably true."

Man, Twilight's even worse than I thought it was. ;P

"ShadowDuelist is a god."
        -Teague Chrystie

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Re: "Well written."

avatar wrote:

What's worse? Obscurantist academic writing, or fingernails on a chalkboard, or a dentist's drill, or this...?

Anakin: "You... are so... beautiful."
Padme: "It's only because I'm so in love."
Anakin: "No, it's because I'm so in love with you."
Padme: "So love has blinded you?"
Anakin: "Well that's not exactly what I meant."
Padme: "It's probably true."

Jesus, this reads like a Whose Line Is It Anyway parody of a soap opera.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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Re: "Well written."

My favourite line of dialogue from the prequels, said with a straight face is this-

Padmé- Hold me, like you did by the lake on Naboo; so long ago when there was nothing but our love. No politics, no plotting, no war.

I thank you......

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Re: "Well written."

To me, good writing (outside narrative writing), means clear structure and straightforward sentences. Have a point; state it simply; support it with a few clear sentences; and move on to the next point.

A good opening should have a somewhat narrative feel, perhaps with a personal connection (explaining why you are addressing this topic now). A good conclusion should reiterate your point and summarize your case, and it should produce a slightly unexpected twist.

And it isn't Shakespeare you should emulate. It's Lincoln, Churchill, and FDR.

And Hitler, of course. Say what you will about him, the man really had a way with words.

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: "Well written."

Zarban wrote:

A good opening should have a somewhat narrative feel, perhaps with a personal connection (explaining why you are addressing this topic now).

This is a good point. I have read far too many pieces where, at the end, I am still wondering why I read it or why it was written in the first place. Both for narrative and non-narrative, I think you should make a point as why what you are saying matters.

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Re: "Well written."

In terms of narrative writing, I'd say that something well written is a piece of text that a) you can read without stumbling, b) prompts your imagination to clearly picture the scene, and c) provokes an emotional response to what's happening. You can be as verbose as you want, but ultimately these are the 3 aims. Obviously there's little sense in using clever-sounding words most of the time, as few will actually know what they mean. However, sometimes the use of an old uncommon word can be just what the text needs and can have drama, e.g., Isildur's bane.

But to go back to (a) above, if you can't actually read it then it's poorly written - regardless of which [Insert Prize] author you're reading.

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. - Carl Sagan

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Re: "Well written."

Just watched Resident Evil: Retribution and it has this wonderful exchange-

Grunt: What are you doing?
Alice: She's alive, I'm going to get her.
Grunt: I didn't lose this many friends so you could just walk away
Alice: I plan on coming back
Grunt: Don't do this. You're more important than she is
Alice: That's where you're wrong
Grunt: This is a mistake
Alice: Get out of my way

Cliché-ridden dire-logue that is performed by two actors who know it's bad writing and don't even bother putting any effort into it. It's quite excruciating to watch. I contribute nothing else to this thread.

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Re: "Well written."

Doctor Submarine wrote:

Jesus, this reads like a Whose Line Is It Anyway .

That's genius! Recast Colin and Ryan as Padme and Anakin and suddenly everything is brilliant big_smile

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Re: "Well written."

Jimmy B wrote:

My favourite line of dialogue from the prequels, said with a straight face is this-

Padmé- Hold me, like you did by the lake on Naboo; so long ago when there was nothing but our love. No politics, no plotting, no war.

I thank you......

Ow, that's painful. But is it as cringeworthy as this infamous example...

Anakin: I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere. Not like here. Here everything is soft and smooth.

not long to go now...

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Re: "Well written."

3 points to the Zarban for the double-reverse Godwin.
437 milllion points to split between Lamer and the Doc, per whatever arrangement they can work out.

(UTC-06:00) Central Time (US & Canada)

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Re: "Well written."

Firstly, everything Mike said is accurate and well put, anything I add will be the gravy to his steak.

Films are moving pictures with sound.  Images have a grammer and syntax as much as the dialogue do, so for me I describe good writing by the fundamentals of the images we are seeing as well as the dialogue is spoken.  A director, cinematographer, and production designer are going to play a important role in ARTICULATING those images that are described on the page, but the fundamentals come from the page.  This is much in the same way as the director, actor, and editor ultimately shape how the dialogue is spoken, performed, and shaped, but the dialogue is more or less what was on the page.  This is partially why I champion comic books so much.  Comic Book writers are in many ways more like auteurs because they have much more direct control over how the words are brought to life. 

So for me there are scenes that are perfect storms of the dialogue and image that convey the specific thoughts thoughts and feelings, and everything is working in a balanced manner to deliver this.  Michael and Fredo's talk in Cuba from Godfather II.  Rocky and Adrianne's first date on the ice rink in Rocky.  John Goodman talking to George Cloony before he mugs him in O Brother Where Art Thou.  Everyone of those scenes has text and subtext is communicated with it's choice and flow of dialogue that parallels the text and subtext of what's happening visually is a good metric of what is good writing.

Eddie Doty

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Re: "Well written."

avatar wrote:
Jimmy B wrote:

My favourite line of dialogue from the prequels, said with a straight face is this-

Padmé- Hold me, like you did by the lake on Naboo; so long ago when there was nothing but our love. No politics, no plotting, no war.

I thank you......

Ow, that's painful. But is it as cringeworthy as this infamous example...

Anakin: I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere. Not like here. Here everything is soft and smooth.


Yeah, I was thinking about that one too but I think Natalie Portman gets extra points for saying 'lake on Naboo' with a straight face and without elongating the 'oo' in a comedic fashion big_smile

All the dire-logue in those films are awful.

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