You are not logged in. Please login or register.
I think the people who don't like her are still judging her based on the way she acted at the beginning of the series, and since then she mostly just looks scared and close to tears all the time. Which is COMPLETELY UNDERSTANDABLE, but not especially interesting.
The few times she's bucked up the courage to sass the Lannisters back have shown the promise of something interesting, though.
Last edited by Dorkman (2013-06-06 02:29:09)
+1 
Yeah, you gotta give Sansa a lot of slack. This all started when she was fourteen goddam years old, and look at what she's been through since then. Most of it completely on her own.
What's interesting is that Cersei has basically been coaching Sansa on how to play this game, and she's already starting to catch on. The question is, how good at it will she get? 
It's writing Sansa as a victim for the first few books which really annoys me. While her situation is desperate, it's as if she's not a Stark at all; we don't see any steel in her until much later on.
I think it's deliberate, and we're not supposed to like her, but damn.
Well, yes - she's the poncy Stark, but that's not even entirely her fault. It was pretty much her destiny to get married off to some nobleman or other, they were training her for it. (Arya too, but Arya wasn't having it. She's the aberration in the family.
So yeah, it's made Sansa a bit of a lump for quite a while, but Martin knew he was drawing on a big canvas, it makes sense he would leave some characters to be late bloomers.
I'm wondering what your definition of "steel" is. Is nearly pushing Joffrey to his death (only to be stopped by the Hound) not it? Her later resistances are smaller but she never surrenders. My favorite scene of hers is during the Battle of the Blackwater. When Cersei loses it and leaves all the other women to panic, Sansa stands up, tells them it will be alright, and leads them in a hymn. Despite knowing that she will, in all likelihood, be killed very soon. That girl is made of steel. They added a wonderful scene in season 2 where she almost directly calls Joffrey a coward since he won't be fighting in the vanguard.
I think people dismiss Sansa as a victim when what she actually is is a survivor. She's doing what even Ned Stark couldn't: play the game well enough to stay alive while surrounded by people who want her dead.
Doesn't make her any less boring to read. I don't disagree with any of the above, her behavior is completely justified by her circumstances, but reading the POV of a mostly passive character who's in a perpetual state of being screwed and traumatized is really dull. I think she works much better on the show actually, because they only include her when they really need to, and Sophie Turner plays the role extremely well.
I think people dismiss Sansa as a victim when what she actually is is a survivor. She's doing what even Ned Stark couldn't: play the game well enough to stay alive while surrounded by people who want her dead.
Her only value is that she's a ticket to claiming Winterfell and its lands, and she needs to be alive long enough to marry, so no-one actually wants her dead.
I dislike Sansa because she starts out vain, selfish, willingly delusional, and superficial, then betrays her father. And that's a lot to come back from. I've read all sorts of posts over the years where folks defend her, about how we misunderstand her, she's just naive/a little girl, or it's Ned's fault for raising her that way, but I think it all misses the point somewhat. I believe we're supposed to dislike her at the beginning, just like we're supposed to hate Jaime, and our dislike is supposed to mellow during her sad story, to the point that
This is book Sansa mind, I've not seen enough of the series to comment, but I imagine they omitted her betrayal?
Edited - Sorry, ASOS book spoiler.
Last edited by redxavier (2013-06-06 09:19:11)
This is a good time to inform anyone that complaining about Sansa will result in very, very long posts from me explaining why you are wrong.
She spends the first book swooning over Joffrey, the most unlikeable character in recent fiction and wanting an upper class life handed to her, hardly a feminist role model 
She spends the first book swooning over Joffrey, the most unlikeable character in recent fiction and wanting an upper class life handed to her, hardly a feminist role model
How can she be a feminist role model when she's a 14 year old starstruck girl finally getting to live in the city of her dreams? And she's completely sheltered from the awfulness of Joffrey pretty much until the end of the book.
It's unfair to expect her to be a strong female character at the beginning of the series. That's why she has an arc.
No, It's unfair to make me read all her narrative! 
Allison, you can't brook this kind of slight, or you'll never be respected. I recommend raising an army and taking the insult to their doorstep.
The honor of House Swarthmore is at stake!
And she's completely sheltered from the awfulness of Joffrey pretty much until the end of the book.
She witnesses his cruelty the same time as the reader does, on the river with Arya and the butcher's boy, so that doesn't fly. Further, she sees as we do that he's an utter coward when confronted by Nymeria. Then witnesses his reactionary violent nature when she tries to help him and he screams at her. Later she sees, as we do for the first time, that he's a lying liar without any shred of guilt about it.
These are all awful character traits, which she willingly ignores because he's pretty. That the whole experience leads to the execution of her favourite puppy teaches her nothing too - as she then blames Arya, for standing up for someone who was being bullied.
I stand corrected, redxavier. It's hard to remember all the plot details from book to book. You're right; those are pretty awful traits.
Still, I like that she has and arc and I do still like her character. Is she a hero in the classic sense? No. But I do like her trajectory and I like her point of view, even if it is incredibly different from the other characters in the series.
No worries, sorry if I came across as a bit rah-rah. I can't help but get a little heated when it comes to Sansa and Catelyn.
I think you've hit the nail on the head there, despite what I think of Sansa as a person, she's a fantastic character, really well written and nuanced, with a fascinating journey that is unlike anyone else in the story. Sam is sort of similar, it's frustrating to be in his head, because most of us aren't that weak, but his development will be so much more potent.
I'm reminded of a great quote, that I think GRRM once said, about how the person who never reads only experiences one life, but the person that does read gets to experience many lifetimes.
Allison, you can't brook this kind of slight, or you'll never be respected. I recommend raising an army and taking the insult to their doorstep.
The honor of House Swarthmore is at stake!
Sansa is the bravest Stark. Like, by a long shot. Not a single other Stark child would be able to survive in her situation for as long as she did. Arya and Robb and Bran would all nobly and openly rebel, and they'd be killed. Sansa's most heroic trait is her ability to survive surrounded by people who want nothing more than to exterminate her entire family. I love Sansa. She's awesome.
+1
I think you might be mistaking bravery for cowardice? Also, as I mentioned previously, her and Arya are the only Starks most likely to survive the whole war regardless of what they do, since they have value in surviving long enough for marriage. Sansa doesn't survive through any behaviour of her own, she's only living in Kings Landing because she gives Joffrey control over the North, and has extra protection at the start because Jaime is captured.
I'd kinda liken Sansa to a piece of paper blowing in the wind. Everyone else is using her, and tellijng her what to do, but she has absolutely no control over any of it, so she just waits, keeps her head down (literally, hah) and goes where people blow her, and really really hopes she doesn't wind up being blown into a windmill or paper shredder.
Which I mean, don't get me wrong I think she's an interesting character, and definitely it's something worth exploring (Honestly, if all the characters were bravado filled iron chested statues of bravery and wit, it would get seriously old, really quick). but I wouldn't call her a great character, at least not in the same way that Tyrion or Arya are. But it is interesting to see her just get fluttered about and blown from place to place by the winds of Kings Landing, and how this little girl with no tools for dealing with this kind of shit is dealing with it.
Last edited by BigDamnArtist (2013-06-06 19:18:45)
Allison wrote:This is a good time to inform anyone that complaining about Sansa will result in very, very long posts from me explaining why you are wrong.
She spends the first book swooning over Joffrey, the most unlikeable character in recent fiction and wanting an upper class life handed to her, hardly a feminist role model
I wrote my final paper for Feminist Film and Media on how Sansa is a wonderful female character, so...I disagree.
She is in love with a cute boy when she's 11. God forbid.
At the river she sees a glimpse of who he is, but she also knows that she's bound to him for life. Sansa doesn't know a lot (thanks for sheltering her so much, Ned!) but she does know that she's essentially owned by him and has been raised to defer to her lord. And we all have to acknowledge that her only models of male behavior are her family and their household, all of whom are wonderful. There is no reason for her to believe that an outburst from Joffrey made him a psychopath. Yes, the Hound killed Mycah, but that was probably explained to her as his choice.
In short: Sansa trusts her parents, who betrothed her to Joffrey, and, much like Ned, trusts that people are good. I'm not excusing that behavior, but you can't ignore that later on she knows he can't be trusted. You can say that she doesn't know a lot at the beginning of the book, but she never has to be told anything twice.
I dislike Sansa because she starts out vain, selfish, willingly delusional, and superficial, then betrays her father.
Sansa did not betray Ned, because she had no idea what was at stake. She had been sheltered from the actual politics so much that she thought it would be no different for her family to go home and for her to stay. She hasn't been told not to trust the queen or the prince. So she asks the King (she goes to Robert, her father's best friend, and is only then met by Cersei) to let her stay with her betrothed. You could blame her if Ned had told her what the situation was, but you can't blame her for not being omnipotent.
Also, it is true that Sansa is being kept alive for her claim, but we can't discount the fact that Joffrey could have had her killed. He went off script at Baelor by executing Ned, and no one could stop him even thought it was a horrible strategic decision. But she is pretty good at understanding his moods, as demonstrated at the Tourney for his name day when she saves Ser Dontos, and in the added show scene before Blackwater.
I think that Sansa is going to be coached by Littlefinger, who will meet a horrible end, and then become a player in her own right. Queen in the North!
Last edited by Allison (2013-06-06 20:14:23)
+1
That post probably could have said "If we hate characters for being naive why doesn't everyone hate Ned Stark" or "Seriously, guys, Robb Stark is much less intelligent than Sansa let's shame him instead", but House Swarthmore words are "Why use 10 words when you can use 1000".
That's why you can always spot House Swarthmore on the battlefield - they have the largest banners.
Ned Stark isn't naive and he doesn't trust that people are good... at all. This is a common misconception about his character that isn't supported by the book. Please read his chapters again, he's wary of everyone he meets (specifically thinking this of Pycelle, Varys, and Littlefinger). His demise occurs because he trusts Littlefinger (which he does only after his darling wife said that he could be trusted) and Cersei takes extremely drastic and risky steps to win, first murdering the King then destroying the official Royal will.
There's little evidence that Sansa has been sheltered, just conjecture. Never mind the fact that she's been reared in the cold North by relatively cold people and by a family that took its even younger family members along to an execution. Regardless of how unobservant she is with regards to the politicis, Sansa was at least aware of the increasing violence and its effects on people around her. She could see that her father was seriously injured by Jaime Lannister, and is specifically told “I want you back in Winterfell for your own safety. Three of my men were cut down like dogs not a league from where we sit, and what does Robert do? He goeshunting.” Her own father has been hurt and she can't see the danger? Didn't you say that she trusts her father?
And I'd argue that a betrayal is a betrayal regardless of knowledge of the stakes involved and how oblivious the traitor is to the consequences for their victim. "But say nothing of this. It’s better if no one knows of our plans." Her disobedience is a betrayal (this is the same Sansa you argue is owned body and soul by her lord remember) and Cersei credits it as a boon to her plan. She knew it was wrong, and yet she did it anyway. Not for good reasons, but for purely selfish ones which she gives in her POV. I don't know how you can justify it.
Which brings me back to what I was saying before, the whole point of her character arc is that she betrays her father and is a selfish girl hiding her feelings behind the veneer of ladylike courtesy, preferring to have babies with a bully because he's the doorway to a life of fanciful bliss. To dismiss this and attempt to rationalise her actions and behaviour, I would argue, is missing the point.
There's little evidence that Sansa has been sheltered, just conjecture. Never mind the fact that she's been reared in the cold North by relatively cold people and by a family that took its even younger family members along to an execution.
The younger boys were taken to the execution. Not Sansa and Arya. They're back at Winterfell getting Lady Lessons from the Septa. Sansa has absolutely been sheltered by her parents - her whole existence is about getting prepped to marry her off to somebody. Her story is all about a naive girl getting a big rude face-full of the awful real world, and how she starts to come to grips with it.
The reason I'm interested in Sansa is we don't know if she'll learn to play the game but still keep a shred of her humanity, or will she go full Cersei and become a very successful monster? Right now, between the example of her own mother and Cersei, clearly the smart play is to go the Cersei route. And I wouldn't rule out that being the sad ironic end of her arc. But we don't know yet.
Sorry if this has been posted in spoiler text before but I thought this is genius-
+1
Ned Stark isn't naive and he doesn't trust that people are good... at all. This is a common misconception about his character that isn't supported by the book. Please read his chapters again, he's wary of everyone he meets (specifically thinking this of Pycelle, Varys, and Littlefinger). His demise occurs because he trusts Littlefinger (which he does only after his darling wife said that he could be trusted) and Cersei takes extremely drastic and risky steps to win, first murdering the King then destroying the official Royal will.
Nice swipe at Catelyn, but that's an argument for another day. I actually just finished my re-read of Thrones, and Ned being too trusting is supported by the text. He is wary but ends up trusting people in spite of it. He tells Littlefinger that he was wrong to mistrust him (not motivated by Cat, but rather Littlefinger helping him), and continues to trust him, to his sorrow. Ned trusts people enough to give even Cersei Lannister the benefit of the doubt. He offer Cersei a chance to escape, explicitly telling her that he will inform Robert of her adultery, which allows her to get her plans in order. Renly suggested a much better plan (taking control of the castle during the night and not allowing the Lannisters time to think) but Ned dismisses it as dishonorable. This huge mistake happens before Sansa's "betrayal".
There's little evidence that Sansa has been sheltered, just conjecture. Never mind the fact that she's been reared in the cold North by relatively cold people and by a family that took its even younger family members along to an execution.
I wouldn't call the Starks cold, even though the North is. Sansa has, as said in the text, never seen a man die until the Hand's Tourney. Only Robb, Bran, Theon, and Jon were taken along to the execution. Rickon, Arya, and Sansa were left behind. That isn't to say she isn't tough when she does eventually encounter shit - "but Sansa was made of sterner stuff" is how she reacts to Jeyne crying at a tourney death - but she is sheltered at the beginning of the story.
Regardless of how unobservant she is with regards to the politics, Sansa was at least aware of the increasing violence and its effects on people around her. She could see that her father was seriously injured by Jaime Lannister, and is specifically told “I want you back in Winterfell for your own safety. Three of my men were cut down like dogs not a league from where we sit, and what does Robert do? He goeshunting.” Her own father has been hurt and she can't see the danger? Didn't you say that she trusts her father?
And I'd argue that a betrayal is a betrayal regardless of knowledge of the stakes involved and how oblivious the traitor is to the consequences for their victim. "But say nothing of this. It’s better if no one knows of our plans." Her disobedience is a betrayal (this is the same Sansa you argue is owned body and soul by her lord remember) and Cersei credits it as a boon to her plan. She knew it was wrong, and yet she did it anyway. Not for good reasons, but for purely selfish ones which she gives in her POV. I don't know how you can justify it.
I will point out that her lord is Joffrey, not Ned. And I empathize with her behavior because people - especially young people - are selfish and stupid when it comes to what they think is love. That's why Robert fought a war. That's why Robb risked the entire northern rebellion (and Sansa'a life). But Sansa never makes the same mistake twice, while her father chose to give Cersei a chance after her brother slaughtered his men.
Which brings me back to what I was saying before, the whole point of her character arc is that she betrays her father and is a selfish girl hiding her feelings behind the veneer of ladylike courtesy, preferring to have babies with a bully because he's the doorway to a life of fanciful bliss. To dismiss this and attempt to rationalise her actions and behaviour, I would argue, is missing the point.
I think Sansa's arc is actually about a girl who has no power of her own clawing her way towards agency by exploiting the system. Whereas Daenerys tears down power systems and builds her own, people like Sansa, Cersei, and Catelyn work within confines to gain power. Sansa is meant to demonstrate a different kind of strength: a feminine strength. While some people fight the game of thrones with swords, women (and the subtler political figures) fight with minds. Her courtesy isn't a veneer, it's "armor". And while she is still far from independent, she is using everything she knows and has learned to get herself out of her situation. Her arc also shows how people can be good despite being abused by everyone. She doesn't want people to be scared of her like they're scared of Cersei: "if I were Queen, I'd make them love me". I cannot wait to see her with Harry the Heir, because I think she was born to be the behind the scenes power player that a queen mother is.
+1
Powered by PunBB, supported by Informer Technologies, Inc.
Currently installed 9 official extensions. Copyright © 2003–2009 PunBB.
