Topic: I need some C&C for this project.

Hey all you wonderful DiFy people! As I'm sure some of you know, I've been working on my Demo Reel project for my 2nd year at Vancouver Film School. And I figure that if I have a forum full of VFX artists/filmmakers at my disposal I should try to pick your brains a bit. All at my own gain of course. But I'd really appreciate it. smile

So first thing, info dump.

Script

One Sheet

Animatic with Color Coding

Really Rough Proxy Design for Spaceship


Now questions!

Basically I'm looking for overall thoughts, comments, ideas, questions. Anything that will really help me make this thing amazing.

And I have a few specific questions, Trey could probably really help with this. I'm looking to shoot a lot of practical effects plates to comp in, the desert that the VTOL engines kick up from the desert, exhaust from the engines that kind of stuff. But I have never done ANYTHING like that before. Any little tips or tricks you can mention? What kind of stuff is really good for those kind of effects? (I managed to get the idea of compressed air and crushed walnut shell dust for kicked up dust from the Avatar Siggraph talk I went to) but outside that I'm sort of at a loss. I have ideas, but I thought I'd see what the experts have to say.

And this one is really broad and general but here goes. How do I ensure that this thing feels real? I've tried as much as possible to limit my shots and angles to very realistic camera moves, nothing crazy and wild. And I know a lot of it is going to come down my modeling and texturing (As my mentors have been so kind to mention a bazillion times) but what other little things should I keep in mind?

Alright, thats enough talking from me.

Thanks in advance, guys!

Last edited by BigDamnArtist (2011-02-27 23:37:57)

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: I need some C&C for this project.

...should this be in the Creations forum or what?

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: I need some C&C for this project.

Yeah, but whatever. This looks pretty cool, dude. I like the restraint of the camera moves and shot selection, nice stuff that.

In terms of shooting FX plates, the most important thing is contrast between the element and the background, whether you do it on a black screen (probably best) or blue, or green, you're most likely not going to be screening the element on, you're going to use the element to make a black and white luma matte that will control a dust-colored solid in After Effects. That way you're not adding light to the scene, just integrating your dust into the existing world. (And that it's all the exact same color probably won't be noticed by anyone, because it moving realistically is much more important than the color. That said, sometimes doing this twice on top of itself with sliiiiightly different colored solids makes it look better.) Dorkman would know a lot about shooting, they did a fuck-ton of plate photography for RVD2. My advice above is for dust, not sparks (which would probably be screened), but whatevs.

Ship exhaust is a whole fucking other thing, and I've learned that I get the best results when I don't try to leave an exhaust trail like the reaver ship in Serenity, but to leave a displacementy sort of effect that might also lower the contrast of the footage behind it. Not a big black putrid trail of smoke, but, it's leaving sort of a vapor trail that dissipates shortly after being born. The way I usually do this is make a single pass that's just a series of white particles coming out of the tail end of the ship, that fade to black over the course of a second or two, and use that pass as a luma matte for an adjustment layer that's just doing a turbulent displace. (Animate the "center" or "offset" of the turbulent displace in the direction opposite the ship's motion. If it just sits still, it looks wonky.)

In terms of making it look real, I get good results from my philosophy here but most people think I sound nuts: modeling is about one sixtieth as important as texturing. All that matters is the pixels on the screen reading as real, and that's entirely texturing. (...um, and ambient occlusion.) In your model, make sure you've got everything there, and maybe even some nice greebles and nurnies in the details so the object looks good on your reel. But in texturing, go fucking nuts. Every edge on the ship should be UV'd such that there's spotty, dinged-up dots on it that break up the line. As much as you can get away with it, texture in rivets or connective details that join two different materials. (And your materials also have to look badass. If your ship is filthy, it's easier to sell. A clean material is harder to nail than a dirty one.) (Partially because on a dirty one, you can use real-world images in your texturing and trick people into thinking it's a real-world object.)

In terms of lighting, HDR is your friend - for fill. (That "for fill" bit is something I never hear from people, but should always be attached to the advice.) What I mean is, render a whole pass with every light turned off but a giant, 100% luminosity orb around the scene that is textured with a mirror-ball image of your set. Turn on radiosity, hit render, and go off and read War and Peace while it cooks. The resulting pass should theoretically be perfect, but it won't be. Run an ambient occlusion pass, that plus your HDR will get you a long way.

The rest of the render passes are for you to discuss with yourself as the compositor. You're going to want a key light pass regardless, match the sun, get one of those, screen (or add, depending on your color correction style) that shit on top. The rest is for the compositor. If the reflective surfaces aren't working, make a pass that's nothing but the reflective bits, and give them something over-the-top to reflect. (You'll see a lot of FX artists' families in the windows of scifi ships. Any image with a lot of detail looks better in a reflection than your stereotypical chrome gradient. You won't recognize it, because the surface is bendy, it just needs something to say "reflection.") Additionally, sometimes it's helpful to render a...

...well, what I call a "retarded" pass. I never said I was a nice person.

A retarded pass is one where the ship is re-surfaced so that it's all 100% luminosity, 0% diffuse, and in bright ass fucking colors. All of the railings on your ship are pink, all of the basic walls are green, all of the windows are purple, all of the...etc.. This is so in AE, if the windows just don't fucking work, you can subtract away from the retarded pass so you have a perfect matte of just the windows (IE, lose everything but purple, then make the purple white) and use that as a luma matte to control an adjustment layer. Then you can tweak the windows individually, either on the footage below your color correction, or on top of the comp affecting all of your layers of bullshit below. It gives you comp-wide freedom for every "section" of the ship, and you'll probably get giddy with all of the options that pass gives you. (I did a few 3D graphics for Ryan's Sabershop site, this is one of the "retarded" passes I gave him. He used it, in this case, to run a "find edges" effect on and gave him the resulting badass outline look you see on said site.)

In terms of making it work in comp...beh. The tried-and-true answer is to add shit on top of everything - not just noise or camera shake, but subtle dust on top of the whole frame, lens flares coming in from the side of the frame, etc.. As far as I'm concerned, if a comp fails on black levels or edge fidelity, it fails all the way. The first things I check for are that the darkest point on your effect is no darker than the darkest spot in the plate. Additionally, edges shouldn't crawl and shouldn't be too fuzzy or too crisp.

And, yeah, shaking the whole comp after it's done doesn't hurt. *looks embarrassed*

One last thing: if your ship is three hundred feet away, finish the comp on it, and then bring in another pass that contains the full alpha outline of the ship. Make that pass a solid color (generate-> fill, in AE) and make that color the same color as the sky. Then lower the opacity on that pass to between 15% and 40%, to taste. This sets the ship back in the universe a little bit and is a good trick to have for some shots where you just can't make yourself happy with the comp.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: I need some C&C for this project.

Wow...dude, thanks. Thats exactly what I've been needing.

The only thing I don't really get is when you're talking about edge fidelity and crawling edges. I'm not sure what you mean by that.

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: I need some C&C for this project.

Just have lots of antialiasing.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: I need some C&C for this project.

Oh, gotcha.

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: I need some C&C for this project.

Out of curiosity, what do you use for your particle effects? (Like the exhaust system your were talking about)

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: I need some C&C for this project.

This depends on your software. I'd go with Particular, since it's easily edited without having to render out the scene to check for errors and the likes.

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Re: I need some C&C for this project.

Ah, well I only really have access to Maya (Which I've never used particles in), softimage (Which I have never used), and Blender.

So...yeah. And I'm not sure if blenders particle system has been updated enough since I used it last.

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: I need some C&C for this project.

I'll just add a recommendation to Teague's advice, which is good. What he calls a "retarded pass" is more commonly referred to as an RGB pass, for the reasons that the only colors present are pure red, green, or blue. Obviously you're likely to have more than three regions of a model you want to be able to isolate, which is why in Teague's case he opts to embrace the full spectrum of color and have yellow and pink and purple etc. From my own experience, however, I would strongly advise against this and instead, render multiple passes of three regions at a time in R, G, and B only.

The reason being that any color other than pure R, G, or B necessarily entails a mixing of the colors and therefore a contamination of the color channels, which makes it more difficult to do exactly what you're trying to do: isolate a given region of the model. If you're dealing only with pure R, G, and B, all you have to do is isolate a given channel and bam, you've got your matte. Anything else and you're dealing with keys and levels and garbage matting to get the matte. It may seem like you're taking a lot of time doing repeated renders of only 3 things each time, but it will almost certainly save much more time that you won't have to spend doing the manual work of garbage matting etc. Let the machine do the heavy frame-by-frame lifting. And render the mattes to PNG to save disk space.

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Re: I need some C&C for this project.

the particle system will only be used as a displacement map, so all you need is particles gushing and fading to black. Then use the matte as a ...well, matte in AE.

Of course, if you can't use AE at all, I suggest testing out all particle systems and give them a flat refraction shader to emulate the same thing.

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Re: I need some C&C for this project.

So thought I'd throw up this one month progress video of the modeling for my ship! It's not quite finished yet, but pretty much there, and if I don't finish it in the next day or so I'm not going to be able to have time to texture it so there you go.

Let me know what you think!

*Ignore the fact that she looks like the back half of her is burnt in the first turntable, weird Final gather glitch, I'll post a better version once it's finished rendering.

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: I need some C&C for this project.

I'm awesome at C&C.

Is that dope enough indeed I paid the price to control the dice
I'm more precise to the point I'm nice
Let the music take control of your heart and soul
Unfold your body is free and behold
Dance till you can't dance till you can't dance no more!

When.

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Re: I need some C&C for this project.

I'm trying very very hard to follow the advice of your signature.

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: I need some C&C for this project.

Well, waddaya know,
Kids want total control,
Hey, yo, leggo my Eggo!

When.

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Re: I need some C&C for this project.

I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to do.

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: I need some C&C for this project.

maul2 wrote:

I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to do.

A very long time ago, a group calling itself C&C Music Factory had a pop music hit with "Everybody Dance Now".  roll

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2VQQEoWlTg

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: I need some C&C for this project.

In which, if memory serves, nobody in the video actually sang on the song (the real singers were too fat for MTV)

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: I need some C&C for this project.

Thanks Jeremiah, Zarban.

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: I need some C&C for this project.

Updated the turntable.

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: I need some C&C for this project.

New turntable! Wheeeee!!

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: I need some C&C for this project.

Very cool model, I loved it on Firefly.

No, but seriously, very cool model.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: I need some C&C for this project.

hmm Everyone keeps telling me that, but me? I just don't see it, nope just don't see it all. I have no idea where you guys are coming from.

But thanks anyways dude.

I get to spend the next week and a half texturing it, so that'll be fun.

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: I need some C&C for this project.

Yeaaaaaah!! Textured shiiiip!!!

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o251/maul2/Shot1_MattePainting_May28_01.jpg

Very very very basics of the first matte painting, I need something as a foreground element on the right side...if you're curious.

And a teaser image for your viewing pleasure.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o251/maul2/242454_10150183865476428_531051427_7338711_3686086_o.jpg

Last edited by BigDamnArtist (2011-05-29 05:12:23)

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: I need some C&C for this project.

If anyone's curious, this is what the matte painting looks like at the moment.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o251/maul2/Shot1_MattePainting_June03_01.jpg

ZangrethorDigital.ca