Topic: Han shot first

[*][/*]Since I havn't seen a post or anything about this I thought I would start one. But in the end it is me just being a nerd and a Military freak all in one.

As I am damned well positive everyone here has seen the re-release of Star Wars, where Greedo shoots first, but by some unknown forces misses by about 2 feet. You know let me rant on this this first.

Star Wars implies that Greedo is a trained killer. First off why would a trained killer not just shoot Han? I am positive you could find some reason, but we have to assume that the bounty on Han is very high,  in which case brining in a dead Han would likely still give you a pretty big payday. Also as most people who actually own guns would tell you pulling a gun is a last resort, and sinse you are not local law enforcement, if you ever pull a gun on someone you shoot them. If put into the situation where you need to pull a gun, you need to pull the trigger.

If say the bounty was for a live guy only (Which is very unlikely but whatever) Why not just sneak up behind the guy and handcuff him? Why would you put a gun in his face and force him into a booth to discuss ANYTHING! Hell you don't even need to handcuff him. Come up behind him and put the gun in his back! and force him out of the bar. You don't need to talk to the guy, so WHY ARE YOU TALKING TO HIM!

Number 2 Why did you force him into a booth and allow him to have one of his hand out of your line of sight? What are cops known to say "Hand's up." It should be pretty obvious why, but apparently I need to spell it out. They do it because if you can't see one of their hands, you don't know what it is doing. What if they are grabbing a gun? And as before mentioned, if you ever have to pull a gun, you shoot it too.

Okay I feel better. Now why does Greedo shoot first? I don't know how many people have handled a gun, but for those who havn't let me point out, it is damned near impossible to miss a target 3 feet away. Even if you are "Shooting from the hip" it is impossible to miss, by a few inches, mess less a foot.

George has said "He didn't want Han to be a 'cold blooded killer.'" Seriously? George I don't know if you have ever been in this situation or not, but any idiot should be able to tell you that having a gun leveled at you is a deadly threat, and in the law, you can kill them to defend yourself. Not to long ago there was a news story of a young mother killing a guy who was attempting to break into her house. So if you need Han to be "morally justified" in shooting Greedo, have Han shoot Greedo the second he has a gun leveled at him.

But the "morally justified" idea doesn't hold water because Han shot before Greedo's shot even hit the wall. Human reaction time isn't that fast. Han had decided to shoot Greedo right then, Greedo shooting had no effect on his decision.

This brings me to another point. Everyone remembers "Return of the Jedi" as the one with "The Good Little Bears" beating the Empire. Most people question that, but thats a mute point to what I want to go into. George has said that the "Little Bears" as he views it are the Vietcong, and the Empire was the American Military... Seriously George? So you view the good gusys as the vietcong who killed how many innocent, freedom loving South Vietnamese? George in Every movie people need to sympathize with the good guys, and not like that bad guys, but the bad guys are not you! If you are the bad guy of your own movie, you need help! There is no reason that you should hate yourself so much.

You know this makes me wonder what is happening? What has happened to Hollywood? Where are all the good movies about American Heroes, instead of "The last good man in a corrupt military" or stuff like that. I want to see more movies where the American's are the good guys, and the Nazi's, or the communist, or the murderous barbarians are the bad guys.

Guess thats why I love Act of Valor so much. It wasn't made by Hollywood, it was made by and starred active duty Navy Seals. Which is why I think, we need more military men making movies. Because they know what side they are on.

Last edited by Dark Coyote (2012-03-20 13:50:24)

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Re: Han shot first

You've gotta learn to let go, man. As Simon Pegg did in Spaced, take all your Star Wars videos, action figures, posters, books, computer games, and other Lucasarts crap and build a big funeral pyre in the yard and burn it. You must pass through the five stages of grieving and once you're out the other side, you won't care about Greedo or the wooden acting or the boring plot or lame effects ever again. Lucas could insert 3D Jar Jar all through A New Hope and you won't care.

not long to go now...

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Re: Han shot first

Huh, I hadn't heard about this. Tell us more.

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Re: Han shot first

I just try not to think about it.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Han shot first

rtambree wrote:

You've gotta learn to let go, man. As Simon Pegg did in Spaced, take all your Star Wars videos, action figures, posters, books, computer games, and other Lucasarts crap and build a big funeral pyre in the yard and burn it. You must pass through the five stages of grieving and once you're out the other side, you won't care about Greedo or the wooden acting or the boring plot or lame effects ever again. Lucas could insert 3D Jar Jar all through A New Hope and you won't care.


But not as Simon Pegg did in real life- publicly declare he and Star Wars were done then voice a character in the Clone Wars TV show big_smile

(I'm just messing, I love Simon Pegg)

Last edited by Jimmy B (2012-03-20 19:57:00)

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Re: Han shot first

Jimmy B wrote:
rtambree wrote:

You've gotta learn to let go, man. As Simon Pegg did in Spaced, take all your Star Wars videos, action figures, posters, books, computer games, and other Lucasarts crap and build a big funeral pyre in the yard and burn it. You must pass through the five stages of grieving and once you're out the other side, you won't care about Greedo or the wooden acting or the boring plot or lame effects ever again. Lucas could insert 3D Jar Jar all through A New Hope and you won't care.


But not as Simon Pegg did in real life- publicly declare he and Star Wars were done then voice a character in the Clone Wars TV show big_smile

(I'm just messing, I love Simon Pegg)

He may have voiced a character in a Star Wars show, but he played a live-action character in the Star Trek movie. I think it's clear which of the two franchises he favors now...
... that being the one that pays him more money...
As far as modern trends toward the portrayal of the military in movies, especially when it comes to how we portray 'enemies', the audience has grown to understand that the 'bad guys' aren't really the grunts. It's the leaders. The guys with the guns are following orders, same as the other guys. Back in the 40's and 50's there was a ton of propaganda portraying the nazis and japanese as evil, cruel, american-hating dogs who juts loved to kill americans and wanted to enslave us all. In truth, the majority of the german and japanese people were just as terrified of us as we were of them. When I watch those films today it feels creepy and weird.

There's a strong anti-war sentiment today, so making gung-ho movies where your righteous military guys are just going around blowing away bad guys in burkas who pop out from around walls or jump out of bushes and go "boogaboogaboo!" isn't really gonna go over well. Frankly, it pisses me off whenever those movies DO get popular. I don't mind so much if the movie is just being a big stupid cheesefest, but if you're trying to portray any kind of realistic scenario, it's better to portray everyone as human. Even the 'bad guys".

Last edited by Squiggly_P (2012-03-20 20:30:43)

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Re: Han shot first

Squiggly_P wrote:
Jimmy B wrote:
rtambree wrote:

You've gotta learn to let go, man. As Simon Pegg did in Spaced, take all your Star Wars videos, action figures, posters, books, computer games, and other Lucasarts crap and build a big funeral pyre in the yard and burn it. You must pass through the five stages of grieving and once you're out the other side, you won't care about Greedo or the wooden acting or the boring plot or lame effects ever again. Lucas could insert 3D Jar Jar all through A New Hope and you won't care.


But not as Simon Pegg did in real life- publicly declare he and Star Wars were done then voice a character in the Clone Wars TV show big_smile

(I'm just messing, I love Simon Pegg)

He may have voiced a character in a Star Wars show, but he played a live-action character in the Star Trek movie. I think it's clear which of the two franchises he favors now...
... that being the one that pays him more money...

Yeah, can't fault the guy for going where the cash is big_smile

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Re: Han shot first

Dark Coyote wrote:

This brings me to another point. Everyone remembers "Return of the Jedi" as the one with "The Good Little Bears" beating the Empire. Most people question that, but thats a mute point to what I want to go into. George has said that the "Little Bears" as he views it are the Vietcong, and the Empire was the American Military... Seriously George? So you view the good gusys as the vietcong who killed how many innocent, freedom loving South Vietnamese?

The Viet Cong analogy wasn't George saying "The Viet Cong were good guys".   The analogy was that an indigenous population with seemingly few resources could stand up to an opposing force with overwhelmingly superior technology.   George was interested in portraying that idea, but that doesn't make him a Viet Cong sympathizer.

As we've pointed out before, the first Star Wars movie was about a poor farm kid who is recruited into a terrorist organization by a charismatic religious leader, and he ultimately destroys a government military installation... but this does not equal George Lucas supporting al Qaeda, either.  Although I wouldn't be surprised if al Qaeda loves Star Wars, talk about a great recruiting film.   What Palestinian kid wouldn't want to be just like Luke Skywalker?   Unfortunately, some of them actually get to fulfill that dream.

Dark Coyote wrote:

Guess thats why I love Act of Valor so much. It wasn't made by Hollywood, it was made by and starred active duty Navy Seals. Which is why I think, we need more military men making movies. Because they know what side they are on.

Rank and file "military men" don't know what side they're on, in terms of the bigger picture.  They couldn't fulfill their function if they were aware that their side is, in fact, the "bad guys" in a conflict.    A functioning military just follows the orders they're given.  They have to, and for good reason.  The labels of "good" and "bad" depend a lot on where you're standing when the shooting starts, or who's telling the story afterward.

Act of Valor is about as "Hollywood" as a movie can get, and right in line with most of the movies we've been getting since 9/11.   9/11 gave Americans a dislike of ambiguity - audiences want stories about gung-ho heroes who kill faceless evildoers.   True, over the past ten years we've also had more than a few movies that dared to suggest that the "war on terror" might have two sides to it... but those movie always tanked.     George Clooney had enough clout to get Syriana made, but he couldn't make audiences want to watch it. 

Meanwhile, Jim Cameron told the story of a heroic terrorist sympathizer by making him a blue cat-man from space and made a billion dollars.  Sometimes analogy is the only way to do it.

Re: Han shot first

trwned

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Re: Han shot first

Jesus, Trey.....can I have your babies?

The answer is no. No, I can't, I'm a dude. Stupid question.

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Re: Han shot first

Trey wrote:

Meanwhile, Jim Cameron told the story of a heroic terrorist sympathizer by making him a blue cat-man from space and made a billion dollars.  Sometimes analogy is the only way to do it.

Rather than a political statement, this really just outs Cameron as a filthy furry fancier.

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Re: Han shot first

I don't like to let go. George raped our childhoods and I want him to pay for it. I know that he never will but doesn't mean I can't want it.

As for Simon Pegg, I don't even know who that is. (Shows how much I know)

George made a movie about a rebelion that took down a tyranny (Somewhat like George Washington), not a kid joining a terrorist group and overthrowing a government (Somewhat like Adolf Hitler.)

Act of Valor was made almost souly, by Navy Seals. The only hollywood influence on it was for the soundtrack.

As for James Cameron, he remade Pocahontas with giant smurfs. But that movie portrays my point pretty well. We used to get movies like Patriot, movies that portray American values. Not we get things like Avatar, where the government, or businesses are corrupt and the (For lack of a better term) "barbarians" are the good guys.

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Re: Han shot first

Simon Pegg is a Brit who starred in Shawn of the Dead and Hot Fuzz.  Recently, he was the artist dude in Paul (his character's name escapes me at the moment.) 

  As I understand it, much of Act of Valor was shot by a hollywood director during live seals training exercises.  They then went back and shot a story around those exercises with some of the seals playing the characters in the story.

Avatar can be seen as a propaganda film for the Na'vi, which is an interesting way of looking at things.  I wouldn't call it a Pocahontas remake with giant blue surfs.  John Smith didn't turn into an indian in that movie. 

  As for George raping ones childhood, I'm tired of hearing this.  Just grow up already.  If you were around when those movies came out, you'd be in your thirties by now!  So Lucas changed his little stories, so what?  Move on with your life man!

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Re: Han shot first

If you think Act of Valor was somehow produced entirely by Navy SEALs and Hollywood only...I don't even know...bought it? Distributed it? How exactly do you think that process worked?

Hollywood and the military partnered up and made Act of Valor to serve their two interests: making money and getting bodies in the ranks. It is the clearest example of propaganda since the Warner Brothers World War II cartoons I can think to cite. But there are plenty of other examples of pro-military material to be found in modern Hollywood - the Transformers movies among them. There's also GI Joe, Stealth, Iron Man, Battleship, etc. etc.  The only difference is that Act of Valor has no magic bean, making it the Kramer vs. Kramer of pro-military propaganda films. (Oh and there's Kathryn Bigelow's movie about killing Bin Laden, which they've delayed only because now they have to go back and make it match real life).

The military is well aware of how it's been depicted in the wake of Vietnam. And in the years since, they've had a pretty clear policy of cooperating with Hollywood productions if and only if they portray the military in a positive light. Want to play with all the nice toys that only the military has? Then you play by the Pentagon's rules. Bay does it the best, that's why his movies have the most and best shots of the toys.

Which is all fine. I make no bones about the fact that I still love watching me some good military porn (at Embry-Riddle, stuff like this but focused specifically on aviation was called Riddle Porn). Propaganda can be fun too, and mostly harmless, so long as you remember you're watching propaganda.

Re: Han shot first

Dark Coyote wrote:

George made a movie about a rebelion that took down a tyranny (Somewhat like George Washington), not a kid joining a terrorist group and overthrowing a government (Somewhat like Adolf Hitler.)

You can always look at things more then one way. When a Malay Muslim friend dismissed 300 as pro-US crap, I told her it actually is anti-US: it's about a superpower coming into this small country and getting their ass kicked.

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: Han shot first

Dark Coyote wrote:

I don't like to let go. George raped our childhoods and I want him to pay for it. I know that he never will but doesn't mean I can't want it.

George didn't rape your childhood; as a child you loved the films. Now they've have changed, and the franchise has become fat and lazy. The films became middle aged and over fed, much like George himself.

Kleenex, one's own hand, and the slave Leia scenes do not constitute rape. Hperbole is not endearing.

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Re: Han shot first

Dark Coyote wrote:

We used to get movies like Patriot, movies that portray American values. Not we get things like Avatar, where the government, or businesses are corrupt and the (For lack of a better term) "barbarians" are the good guys.

Well, the "government and big business as antagonists" ideal isn't exactly new. Aliens did the same thing a few decades ago. I think there's a nice balance of Transformers-style and District 9-style stuff every year. I don't think we need any more or less of each side.

Also, IIRC, Act of Valor began life as a Navy SEALs recruiting film. No joke. It is literally propaganda.

Last edited by Doctor Submarine (2012-03-21 18:07:35)

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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Re: Han shot first

Dark Coyote wrote:

I don't like to let go. George raped our childhoods and I want him to pay for it. I know that he never will but doesn't mean I can't want it.

I'm so tired of this overused, absurd phrase. I despise the special editions, there's not a single addition that I think helps the films, unless we want to count the digital recompositing work they did on the original elements. But Lucas didn't rape my childhood. Lucas pretty much gave me my childhood. The original Star Wars trilogy was a big part of my life, and a huge inspiration to me.

So he changed the movies, and in my opinion made them worse. And he refuses to release the original versions on blu-ray. The only way I can watch the versions I grew up with is those cruddy 4:3 letterbox DVD bonus feature versions. But that's not raping my childhood. That's pissing me off as an adult. Lucas' behavior today doesn't ripple back in time and affect what the original films did for my childhood. Nothing can take that away. Maybe he's robbing me from reliving that today, but nostalgia is overrated anyhow.

And the best part is... Lucas didn't put the versions I wanted out on blu-ray, so y'know what? I didn't buy them. Because nobody made me. I never have to see Greedo shoot first unless I want to, for some reason.

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Re: Han shot first

Yeah, I have zero sympathy for the Raped my Childhood crew.  He made three movies I liked and three I didn't (five if you count THX-1138 and American Graffitti).  Big deal.  I gained far much more joy from the original Star Wars than the I ever gained grief from the Prequels.  George Lucas owes us nothing.  I don't have to spend anymore money supporting his vision, but I don't want reparations.

Eddie Doty

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Re: Han shot first

Eddie speaks truth

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Re: Han shot first

Doctor Submarine wrote:
Dark Coyote wrote:

We used to get movies like Patriot, movies that portray American values. Not we get things like Avatar, where the government, or businesses are corrupt and the (For lack of a better term) "barbarians" are the good guys.

Well, the "government and big business as antagonists" ideal isn't exactly new. Aliens did the same thing a few decades ago. I think there's a nice balance of Transformers-style and District 9-style stuff every year. I don't think we need any more or less of each side.

Movies can be pretty open to interpretation. You just gotta look at em the right way.

The peaceful, spiritual natives on Pandora who want for nothing (USA) are invaded and attacked by greedy foreigners who have an agenda (terrorists), who then destroy their giant tree house (9/11). The natives, who are physically much bigger and stronger than these terrorists, band together with other tribes from all over the land (the post 9/11 sentiment and the people who drove hundreds or thousands of miles to help people in NY) and eventually flock behind one guy who most of them didn't really like all that much before (Bush) and counterattack these terrorists, eventually invading, taking over and securing their base (invasion of Afghanistan, Iraq). Meanwhile, the mastermind behind the attacks is killed in a different location by a much smaller team (Bin Laden).

I wouldn't be surprised to find out Sam Worthington nearly choked to death on a pretzel during production.

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Re: Han shot first

Dark Coyote wrote:

I don't like to let go. George raped our childhoods and I want him to pay for it. I know that he never will but doesn't mean I can't want it.

Not only did he not have to pay for it, he was handsomely rewarded. Yes, life is full of injustices.
Lucas must be the luckiest film-maker in history i.e. earning the most amount of money with the least amount of talent.  Just about every creative decision he's made in the last 15 years has irked and baffled the original SW fans. This leads many to suspect that the concepts that made Star Wars awesome in 1977-1983 had nothing to do with Lucas. Perhaps the less clout and the less input he had in making the original trilogy, the better the films were. I haven't forensically scrutinized the 'making of' books to see if this thesis holds up, but it wouldn't surprise me.

not long to go now...

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Re: Han shot first

Wow.

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